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Jakab Mike




Location: Romania
Joined: 12 Oct 2010

Posts: 1

PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 1:19 am    Post subject: Chain mail armour         Reply with quote

Hey There! I'm new here so i don't have much experience,but i would like to ask you guys something. I've made my own chain mail hauberk and mail coif,and i 'm not that pleased with the result.I' ve seen the Kingdom of Heaven for like a hundred times or so and i've documented myself as good as i could from all sorts of pictures and medieval documentaries but still i can't make my hauberk look like the one Orlando Bloom's wearing in the movie.And i found out that for the chain mail they used like plastic opened rings,which they spray-painted but anyway,that's not the point.The point is that i'm looking for a way to make the gaps between the rings considerably smaller.This is already giving me a headache. Sad Hope that somebody can help me with some suggestions.Thanks a lot and i'll upload a picture of my work and a picture with Orlando Bloom as the Baron of Ibelin so you can see the difference.Thanks again!

You can see the picture better here :

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=133...1174492232



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Gabriele A. Pini




Location: Olgiate Comasco, Como
Joined: 02 Sep 2008

Posts: 239

PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 4:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi and good stay in this forum!

I'm also a mailler and first of all I compliment to you for your work: a complete suit of mail (we prefer to not say "chain mail") is always a good work.

As for your question, you can see as the armour of Orlando Bloom is very loose, with a lot of unnecessary rings. It's cool, I don't say no, but this means a lot of more weight to carry on and a lot more "inertia" when you move. Also the PVC links used in the film work in a different way than the iron rings we used, they tend to not drag so much.

You can try to add more columns of links, or use smaller rings.

What type of rings do you used? Size, wire, material? Also what do you wear under it? If nothing else a gambeson can give you an hand...
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Jonathan Blair




Location: Hanover, PA
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 479

PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 4:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When I made my first (and only) hauberk, I used 3/8" (9mm) inside diameter rings. It made for a looser weave. I would recommend either 7mm or 8mm ID which would tighten your weav, but make for more rings needed to cover the same area. Flattening the rings would also tighten the weave.
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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Romulus Stoica




Location: Hunedoara, Transylvania, Romania
Joined: 26 Oct 2006

Posts: 124

PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 6:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello to you. It seems that a lot more romanians on this forum, that's nice. I am also making maille armor and I suggest using smaller rings (1,6-1,8 mm wire rolled in 8 mm internal diameter rings looks good) or you can try making flattened rings but this is a lot of hard work. I have studied some original maille shirts from the museums in Transylvania and their rings are a flattened oval in section. I have tried both. But making a maille shirt with flattened rings will require more than double work hours than a shirt made from standard round section rings.
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Walter S




Location: Czech Republic
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 86

PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 9:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I take Kingdom of Heaven more as an example of how mail *should not* look. Their mail behaves and looks more like textured carpet than real mail. Way too stiff and opaque.
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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Reading list: 17 books

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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Still, the KoH maille is a hundred times better than the silver painted knitted wool that is still used to pass off as maille.
The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 1:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Walter S wrote:
I Way too stiff and opaque.

Like this?



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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 1:55 pm    Post subject: opaque mail?         Reply with quote

Or this


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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 2:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gabriele A. Pini wrote:
Hi and good stay in this forum!

I'm also a mailler and first of all I compliment to you for your work: a complete suit of mail (we prefer to not say "chain mail")


If you search the internet for "mail" you will not find as much information as "chain mail" or "chain armor" will bring up. "Chain armor" is a much more accurate description then "mail" "maille" or "chain mail"
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 3:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not to my mind it is not. Chain armor is just as bad if not worse than chainmail.

Maille means a net. There is nothing chain-like about it besides having links. It looks much more like what one would relate to a net than a chain.

RPM
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Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
Joined: 14 Aug 2009

Posts: 279

PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 3:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I second Randall on that, maille is as similar to actual chains as a cuirass is to a flat sheet of steel.
Also, I feel it is more historically correct to call it maille, since that is what was used in period. I also would really HATE to have to find the (literally) hundreds of people I've been drilling to stop using that abomination "chain mail" and now inform them that the new chic term is "chain armour" (forgive my sarcasm Wink )

Jakab, It has been mentioned that anything seen in movies can just be naturally assumed to be completely off. This statement is far more accurate than anything I've ever seen wielded or worn in a movie.
That said, if your bent on becoming a crusader, look up some period artwork, and check some of the kits and such worn by people. Others have done this before and will more than likely be glad to help.

In the short term, make some chausses & get a surcoat. put those on, and suddenly the coolness will be factored by 10!!!

"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
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Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 4:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

the use of the "chain" term is probably due to direct translations from German, where they have no "mail" word, and refer to "kettenhemd" or "kettenhaube", where the word "kette" can mean both "chain" and "link". Never the less, it is semantics. Languages develop, we know what you mean.

You actually have quite a good start, compared to many other DiY mail projects. It seems that your problem is that you are trying to make a copy that is better than the original...

If you are going for a late 12th c look, the coif is most commonly integrated in the hauberk, or worn under it. It does not need to have a large, circular neckpiece. You could also try to make a ventail; a triangular piece used to close the opening under the chin. (They have these in KoH...)
The hauberk is also typically knee or thigh length, but that is more a matter of work. It seems tightly fitted, which is good, except that it should be fitted over an arming tunic (cloth armour). However, if you get one now, the mail will not fit, so it would probably be best to leave that for "next time".
The most important thing is that you can move without the armour hindering your movement. With butted mail, there is also the problem of tight fitting mail pulling itself apart when stretched.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 6:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
Not to my mind it is not. Chain armor is just as bad if not worse than chainmail.

Maille means a net. There is nothing chain-like about it besides having links. It looks much more like what one would relate to a net than a chain.

RPM


A chain is a series of connected links which are typically made of metal. A chain may consist of two or more links. To me it looks more like chains connected together then a net. In present times mail or maille can have nothing to do with armor, jewelery and clothing can be called mail or maille. Chain armor more accurately describes the type of armor better than either mail or maille...in my opinion.
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 7:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

OK but how many chains go side to side connections the entire way up and down. It stops being a chain at that point. Regardless you can hold whatever vocab you wish.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The accepted academic term is "mail". You can call it whatever else you want but expect to be treated as a fanboy and not taken seriously. "Maille" is medieval French. Modern French uses the plural "mailles".

Last edited by Dan Howard on Wed 13 Oct, 2010 3:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Oct, 2010 1:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
The accepted academic term is "mail". You can call it whatever else you want but expect to be treated as a fanboy and not taken seriously. "Maille" is bastardised French. It is definitely not historical. In real French they use the plural "mailles".




Do an internet search for "mail" and see what you come up with, if you do not add "chain" in you search some were you will get a lot of info on postal letters. Do you personally consider anyone who does not use the term "mail" to be "fan boys" and not to be taken seriously? I would call anyone with that attitude an "elitist" Accepted academic terms are not always the most commonly used terms for various reasons.

The Japanese use the word "kusari" or chain for a weapon with a chain "kusari gama or chain sickle " or for armor made with chain "kusari gusosku or chain armor " etc, they considered chain to be chain if it was one strand or many strands connected together. If someone was looking at "mail" from a Japanese point of view then European "mail" would be just another form of "chain armor or kusari gusoku", does that make them a "fan boy'?
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Oct, 2010 2:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Greeks used the word halusidoton which also means "chain" or "link". How is any of this relevant? We are writing in English not Japanese or Greek.
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Romulus Stoica




Location: Hunedoara, Transylvania, Romania
Joined: 26 Oct 2006

Posts: 124

PostPosted: Wed 13 Oct, 2010 4:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anyway, the topic was about how you can make a mail armor with smaller gaps between rings (links), so we better return on topic. There are any other methods except using smaller diameter rings or flattened rings? Using a 6 in 1 pattern will produce a more dense "fabric" but I don't believe this is historically correct if you refer to XII-XIII century mail.
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Sander Alsters




Location: Netherlands
Joined: 03 Jun 2009

Posts: 54

PostPosted: Thu 14 Oct, 2010 3:10 am    Post subject: Coif         Reply with quote

I dont know if this fits the topic but, I have a question how I could better make the eyeholes in my coif. Can someone give me some advice?

http://ziej.hyves.nl/album/27937538/Vrienden/...file_Photo

It is hard to see but if you download the picture you can zoom in. The prob is I try to get nice round eyeholes, regardless what I've tried there always some link that falls not as I intended. Making the eyeholes with leather could do the trick but to hide the leather knot causes me a problem.

Thanks!

Sander.[/img]
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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Oct, 2010 4:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Have you considered lining your coif with something? E.g. a linen backing?
The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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