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Stephen Wheatley




Location: DORSET ENGLAND
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Sep, 2010 2:53 pm    Post subject: Thirty years war swords         Reply with quote

Has anyone got reference photos of the original for this sword? It looks like a fairly crude Czech reproduction of a kind of sidesword or rapier, Any reference to similar weapons would be welcome.


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Stephen Wheatley
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Greg Coffman




Location: Lubbock, TX
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Sep, 2010 8:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To me it resembles a late katzbalger because of the pommel cap instead of a regular pommel and because of the wide cutting-oriented blade. Complex hilts including knuckle guards can be found on katzbalgers from around 1550 on. Of course, that's just what it resemble to me. It might be based on the imagination of the maker.

The term "sidesword" is not usually used to designate such a cut-oriented sword, although this one would certainly be carried at the side. "Rapier" is not really appropriate at all.

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Wed 29 Sep, 2010 8:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I really don't know what that sword is supposed to be. It doesn't really resemble much from history, at least, as a whole.
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Gottfried P. Doerler




Location: Tyrol, Austria
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PostPosted: Thu 30 Sep, 2010 12:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

nonetheless it looks cool and i like it.
for myself i tend to think of these weapons as "heavy-duty rapiers", but i must admit, i`ve seen such heavy blades with rapier-like hilt mostly in fiction-films.
"the mummy 2" for example, the hero`s wife strikes candles in the beginning with a cup-hiltet heavy blade,
"shangai knights" during the end-fight, they wield weapons like these, and in
"narnia 2" the bad guys all carry long and heavy swords with rapier-hilts.

coming to think of it, i always wanted something like this, but the only things i found on the net, were del tin 5166 (whose blade is a bit too narrow for my taste), the munich-town-guard-sword and 30$ prince-caspian-sword crap.

where did you buy this ??
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Stephen Wheatley




Location: DORSET ENGLAND
Joined: 15 Nov 2008

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PostPosted: Thu 30 Sep, 2010 1:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes Gottfried, thought as much; the Munich Watch sword is a beauty - I just thought I'd seen a similar hilt to this iin the Rustkammer in Graz, but can't quite recall it.

Nathan, a real shame that such an original doesn't exist. Think I'll make one anyway - I really like the look of it. I'd say that such a hilt needs a full length blade, sad as I have a 27'' circular saw blade crying out to be made into a couple of hangers!

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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Thu 30 Sep, 2010 6:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wonder if swords like these would have been used in 30 years war?
http://www.sfhm.se/templates/pages/ArmeObject...anguage=EN






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Neil Gagel




Location: Oklahoma City
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PostPosted: Thu 30 Sep, 2010 6:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That officer's sword with the flared shoulders is an absolute thing of beauty!
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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Thu 30 Sep, 2010 6:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Neil Gagel wrote:
That officer's sword with the flared shoulders is an absolute thing of beauty!


Yes, a true "heavy" rapier Laughing Out Loud I am sure it would be interesting to handle that sword.
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Daniel Staberg




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PostPosted: Thu 30 Sep, 2010 7:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's is also an interesting example of how parts were reused, the hilt is from 1620 but has been mounted with a new blade dated 1652.

All 3 styles saw use in the 30-Years war period, the simples style with only a single parrying plate is known as the Dutch-Swedish style and was mass produced by first Dutch and then Swedish makers as well as Germans hired by the two.

The second sword is a typical cavalry sword of the early part of the war, it was designed for use by the Cuirassiers and the design is made for combat against men in heavy armour.

The last design is a bit unusal but reflects the fact that by the end of the war the use of armour was limited, my impression is tha it is more effective cutter than the previous sword while the hollow ground design a stiff mid rib still allows for effective thrusts.

"There is nothing more hazardous than to venture a battle. One can lose it
by a thousand unforseen circumstances, even when one has thorougly taken all
precautions that the most perfect military skill allows for."
-Fieldmarshal Lennart Torstensson.
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Stephen Wheatley




Location: DORSET ENGLAND
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PostPosted: Thu 30 Sep, 2010 11:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I really like the varjor a lot - I'm making one at the moment; the pommel is a swine to grind for such a deceptively simple design. My little theory is that they're what the Germans meant by ''Schwedendegen'' as they seem characteristic of protestant forces, yet you see the term applied to Waloon swords more than anything. I'm sure Waloons were common in both trettioarigekriget and in ECW but I've only seen one or two Swedish/Dutch swords in England - surprising considering the number of Anglo gentry who fought for and lionised Gustav Adolf.
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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Fri 01 Oct, 2010 12:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe also swords like this saw use in that conflict?
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=17652

Just for fun I made me a very crude weapon vaquely resembling this for "backsword" training, of some parts that I just happened to have. A real ugly duck, but I have had some good comments about its handling.
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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Fri 01 Oct, 2010 2:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Answering my own question, looks like they did.



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Julien M




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PostPosted: Fri 01 Oct, 2010 3:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Neil Gagel wrote:
That officer's sword with the flared shoulders is an absolute thing of beauty!


I agree...splendid. I have never seen such a sword before. Any other such examples would be welcome (or more detailed pictures of that one!) I'm surprised the blade is more recent than the hilt, I would have thought broad blades such as these mounted on complex hilts would have in fact been old types remounted to the current fashion,

Cheers,

Julien
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Stephen Wheatley




Location: DORSET ENGLAND
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PostPosted: Fri 01 Oct, 2010 7:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some more Swedish/Dutch swords. Real things of beauty, I think one of them belonged to Torstennson. What about the weapon in the original post? Anyone ever seen an original hilt similar?


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Stephen Wheatley
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Fri 01 Oct, 2010 9:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pauli Vennervirta wrote:
Maybe also swords like this saw use in that conflict?
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=17652


That sword dates to later in the century, around 1670. But the sword below might have been used in that war.



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North German, 110cm overall
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Gottfried P. Doerler




Location: Tyrol, Austria
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Oct, 2010 8:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i think this tends more towards later cavarly swords, especially those, the french called "a la suedoise" -"like the swedish"
i think these were in use quite a while maybe until ~ 1740 or something
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