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Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 7:34 am    Post subject: Mail standard / collar project help         Reply with quote

Recently there have been several very informative threads regarding mail which have got my creative juices flowing.

Hereís my situation: Iím working on a mid-14th century English kit and I really want to create a period correct standing mail collar with the little tiny rings. (Hours and hours of fun! Happy )

Hereís the dilemma: I fight in the SCA which requires rigid neck, throat and vertebra protection. (Bummer Sad )

Hereís the compromise: Create a form-fitting (and admittedly anachronistic) gorget, then hide it by attaching the standing mail collar.

Hereís the request: Has anyone done this before? What is the best way to go about this project? Does anyone have a better or more historically accurate alternative?

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 1:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Why attach it? Could you not simply wear a maille standard over a leather (or leather-covered steel) standard or low profile gorget? Since you're making it yourself, you can make sure it snugly fits over it without wiggle room. That way when you're not doing any SCA fighting you can simply leave out the under collar/gorget and just wear the period appropriate maille standard.
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Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 2:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sander Marechal wrote:
Why attach it?

Indeed! Thank you Sander.

I've noticed that you are aggressively pursuing your kit and I've really enjoyed following your threads. Do you have any suggestions for me or period sources for a mail collar?

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 4:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Unfortunately not. I'm currently focusing on a 1250-ish kit and if I recall correctly, mail collars are more of a late 14th century thing. I'd love to have a decent 14th century kit some day, buy a lack of money means I need to get my 1250-ish kit done first (my reenactment club has got it's first public performance this October).
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Jul, 2010 8:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

are standards a 14thc thing? i thought they were more of a mid-late 15thc thing.

i have seen SCA fighters use a standard with their rigs before. heavy weight leather and padding attached to the top of the standard that goes around the neck. the mail itself will make it stand up.

as seen here: all it has is a thin leather liner to protect my neck.
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Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jul, 2010 6:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm under the assumption that standing mail collars can be dated to the 14th century. Some nice pictorial references were provided by Elling Polden in the What did a mail coif really look and work like? thread.

I'd be very interested to know if the 14th century is too early to reliably document.

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jul, 2010 9:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Scott,

I've been busy so I've haven't had the time to reply.

I've "made" padded maille standards from pre-made riveted standards sold by both Historic Enterprise and Icefalcon Armory. HE is suppose to be stocking a 7 mm ring version soon and Ice brings in a 6mm ring model.

My first one has a fitted "dog collar" made from 2 layers of heavy 10 oz veg tanned curiboiled leather with a 16 ga trauma plate that was sewn on to the padded linen shell.

My newest versions forgos the dog collar for a padded floating 16 ga trauma plate held in place by a buckskin cover as that's all we need in WMA. The basic shell has 3 layers of padding and the plate has 3 more.









Hope this gives you some ideas.

David

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
Joined: 08 Aug 2007

Posts: 238

PostPosted: Tue 20 Jul, 2010 11:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Hrouda wrote:
I'm under the assumption that standing mail collars can be dated to the 14th century. Some nice pictorial references were provided by Elling Polden in the What did a mail coif really look and work like? thread.

I'd be very interested to know if the 14th century is too early to reliably document.


Hi
Here are a selection of images from my mid 14th C image collection showing what I believe to be maile standards or mail coats that have a similar feature.

mackenzie



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Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jul, 2010 1:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Teague wrote:
Hope this gives you some ideas.
Thank you for sharing your kit pictures. This really helps me figure out the "how to" of DIY maille standards. Nice work on the decorative rivet heads / washers!
What are you using for sewing thread? It looks much heavier than the waxed thread I purchase from Tandy.
I've had great success working with Andre at IceFalcon in the past, I'll have to look him up again.

Mackenzie Cosens wrote:
Here are a selection of images from my mid 14th C image collection showing what I believe to be maile standards or mail coats that have a similar feature.
You have a great collection of images! I've never seen the statue (file name 1363-85_BernaboVisconti_04) before. The level of detail is outstanding.
...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jul, 2010 9:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The one David shows above he put together for me (because he is awesome!), and I have been raving about how much I love it. Its primary function is for WMA unarmored bouting, with it over my gamebeson and under my mask. It provides surprisingly good throat protection and also covers the collar bones, but is flexible enough that I can lift my arms straight up (can't do that with a brigandine gorget).

I'm also now using it with my 15th c. harness. The padding makes it too thick to fit under my cuirass, but it works quite well over it, as seen below.



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Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jul, 2010 9:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Men in armour who smile look strange to me.

Razz

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David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jul, 2010 10:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Men in armour who smile look strange to me.

Razz


I'm smiling... do I look strange?


This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Ben van Koert




Location: Veenendaal, the Netherlands
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Jul, 2010 10:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is how I did it with my 9 mm maille standard:





When my 6 mm voider set arrives I won't pad it, but just use some leather to make the collar stand up. This 9 mm is too thick to be used with my bevors, but is ideal when used together with a barbute, as the extra neck protection is more welcome then.
The small pigskin edging makes a lot of difference in the comfort of the standard rubbing against your throat, I can recommend it. Happy
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jul, 2010 5:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.historiclife.com/Armory.htm here's James Barkers standard as well as original pictures of one in museums
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Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jul, 2010 7:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chuck Russell wrote:
here's James Barkers standard as well as original pictures of one in museums
James has some great information, thank you for sharing the link. The images of an actual 15th century maille standard in the British Museum were outstanding. Thanks as well for sharing the image of your kit!

Ben van Koert wrote:
The small pigskin edging makes a lot of difference in the comfort of the standard rubbing against your throat, I can recommend it.
It's the little things that make all the difference, thanks!

David Teague wrote:
I'm smiling... do I look strange?
Anyone with a kit like that better be smiling Happy

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Men in armour who smile look strange to me.
All men in armour who smile, or just this particular trio? Razz

Bill Grandy wrote:
The one David shows above he put together for me (because he is awesome!)
You are a very lucky guy (thus the smiling Wink )
...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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