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Daniel Kwiatkowski




Location: Poland
Joined: 09 Jul 2010

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri 09 Jul, 2010 4:36 am    Post subject: Big problem with small plackart         Reply with quote

Hi there! I've been looking for some evidences that placard (on jack) was in use near 1410y. i'm a gunner and this kind of armour is just great for me. I CAN MOVE MY HANDS IN IT ! Laughing Out Loud

Władyslaw Jegiełło will pay 10,000 gold coins for any manuscript, archeology or anything else that prove the usage of this miracle armour Happy

Sorry for my bad English, i've come from a small country called Poland where mooses run free on the streets of capitol city, Warsaw Big Grin
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Fri 09 Jul, 2010 11:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Big problem with small plackart         Reply with quote

Daniel Kwiatkowski wrote:
Hi there! I've been looking for some evidences that placard (on jack) was in use near 1410y. i'm a gunner and this kind of armour is just great for me. I CAN MOVE MY HANDS IN IT ! Laughing Out Loud

Władyslaw Jegiełło will pay 10,000 gold coins for any manuscript, archeology or anything else that prove the usage of this miracle armour Happy

Sorry for my bad English, i've come from a small country called Poland where mooses run free on the streets of capitol city, Warsaw Big Grin


I'm not sure but probably the plackard was in use at the time you want to portray ? In any case I'm " bumping " this topic up so that it might get more attention. ( It sometimes takes a few days for someone with the answer(s) to notice a new Topic and post an answer ).

Welcome to the site in any case even if I couldn't be very helpful.

Like your sense of humour. Wink Big Grin Cool Didn't know there where moose in Poland ? There are a lot of them in Québec Canada but they are usually found in the countryside but by some strange coincidence we had a lost moose in Montréal a few weeks back wandering the streets; It got tranquillized and safely returned to far outside city limits.

By the way the Montréal area has a population of about 3 million people and the city is on an island.
http://www.globalmontreal.com/money/Cops+subd...story.html

Oh, and a pic of me in a plackard on the left over a light maille shirt.



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Martin Fischer




Location: Cologne, Germany
Joined: 21 Jul 2007

Posts: 43

PostPosted: Sat 10 Jul, 2010 12:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Daniel,

I would give you 10000 gold-coins, too.

This kind of protection, that's known as "plackard" in the "scene", is nonsense.

The origin of these fantasy-pieces is maybe the wrong interpretation of contemporary pictures, on that breasts with textile-covered upperparts are shown.

Sorry for that & regards

Martin
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Chris Kelson





Joined: 19 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Jul, 2010 5:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Logically, is it not a bad idea to not armour the upper torso if you can afford it? By that I mean wearing a placard without a suitable breastplate/brigandine to cover the upper chest just seems to paint a 'stab here to win' marker over the exposed parts of the chest.

Even with a solid jack as the base layer of protection, I'd think covering the majority of my vital organs with a breastplate would be a better investment than just a placard. In fact in every depiction I can find the placard is coupled with a breastplate. I'd hazard a guess that to do otherwise is akin to wearing a visor without the rest of the helmet.
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Thom R.




Location: Tucson
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Jul, 2010 12:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is pictorial evidence for plackards on top of brigandine or jack in your time period. (see this thread)

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...brigandine

however there is an argument whether this was common and whether the cloth covered armour is actually cloth covered plate rather than brigandine. plackart over brigandine seems like a reasonable combination to me........... especially for a gunner who needs mobility.

there is probably on balance more evidence for brigandine over a mail skirt and mail sleeves for your time period and that is even more mobile. for 1410 remember also that the conventional plackart with large tassets (what Jean is wearing) was not common until mid century. prior to that - e.g. Agincourt - multi-plate longer hooped fauld skirts without tassets were the norm. Tassets don't figure prominently until mid century from what i have seen of 15th c effigies

i don't know of any evidence for a plackard over mail over a gambeson being standard kit. that doesn't make a lot of sense to me unless you just had no BP or brigandine available - in other words given the choice of a BP with fauld or plackart with fauld why wouldn't you choose a BP?
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Jul, 2010 7:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thom R. wrote:

i don't know of any evidence for a plackard over mail over a gambeson being standard kit. that doesn't make a lot of sense to me unless you just had no BP or brigandine available - in other words given the choice of a BP with fauld or plackart with fauld why wouldn't you choose a BP?


I can't say that I researched the wearing of a mail shirt and plackcard like in the pic as I did it for " costume use " and not for any strict living history purposes or at a high standard of historical accuracy ...... but then I often mix and match various armour " bits " somewhat loosely but avoid ugly and truly extreme mix and matching like a 10 th century kite shield with a 16 th century Morion for example. Wink Laughing Out Loud

That aside, why would one choose a maille shirt and plackard combination ? Compared to a full breast plate/plack combination or a brigantine/plackard combination, the maille shirt/plackard does seem like a step down in protection. Wink

But if we look at it in the other direction: The maille shirt over gambison is fairly decent protection in itself and very flexible, adding a plackard adds to this protection but retains almost all of the flexibility of the maille shirt ! So it's a step up in protection but it doesn't leave the upper chest unprotected.

The plackard also protects the solar plexus from blunt impact which can knock the wind out of you easily if wearing only maille. Also wearing the plackard is much cooler ( less heat cooler ! ) than a full breast plate and my back is only covered by the maille/gambison ).

The plackard also protects well from horizontal cutting attack to the lower torso if one's arms are up holding a sword.

Oh, the plackard in my pic with the large tassets and my wearing a German articulated neck sallet does make my armour " loosely " very late 15th to early 16 th century ..... or at least that was my intent. Wink

( Note that my maille shirt is welded stainless steel using very fine and small rings and over my natural colour gambison it almost looks as if I wearing only a gambison ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Daniel Kwiatkowski




Location: Poland
Joined: 09 Jul 2010

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 5:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for help with plackard problem we have our own medieval forum called www.freha.pl but even there nobody knows if it was used in 1410 or not. I will not take rest or eat anything untill i find that plackard was used in 1410y ! I saw something like in the picture on our auction site. I dont wanna belive that this is nothing more than blacksmiths fantasy. Like you see there are no foulds at all. Construction of this plackart is even simplier than a construction of hammer (hmm, did I wrote it well? If its funny then... hell yeah i wrote it well). So my question is: have someone seen it before and if soo, when was it used?

Ant now something totaly diffrient:

17.07 - We will have Battle of Tannenberg reconstruction. It will be 600 years now. There will be realy messy battle cuz we have something about 10,000 fighters !!! Cool So even now it will be biggest medieval battle in whole europe. COME AND SEE IT BY YOURSELF Big Grin

And last thing ...sorry for my realy bad english Big Grin ive come from a small country where people live in tents, socialize into tribes and all they do is farming and hunting mammoths with clubs :P



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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
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PostPosted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 7:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

that is more like a 1460s-80s placart is it not? the only ones from early 15thc was low to the belly. ug i'm at work and can't remember the suit it was on.
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Egidijus Stonkus





Joined: 20 Mar 2009

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 10:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have to agree with Chuck. As far as I know, by that time most popular body defence was coat of plates, corazzina or one-piece breastplate. And if you will be going to demonstration I would suggest to wear something more protective than just plackart. Though it will be just demonstration, but it might get quite ruogh because there will be a lot of russians so it would something like a light bughurt. Anyway, see you in Grunwald!!!
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Daniel Kwiatkowski




Location: Poland
Joined: 09 Jul 2010

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chuck ! You can be my savior ! Where did you saw early plackart ? Please try to renember and maybe you can find some proves of it.

As for Grunwald battle, im in gonners detachment. And yes russians, belarussians, ukrainians and lithuanians are pretty nasty in battle. They are more dangerous after the battle ...gesh...if you find one, he will use old kung-fu style on you called : Vodka sneak attack ! Laughing Out Loud
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Jul, 2010 8:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry Daniel - you are very unlikely to ever eat or drink again until you let go of this fantasy. Plackarts are part of a mid to late 15thC item replacing the weaker fauld on late 14thC torso armours. The Churburg S18 harness is a good example of this transition to more integrated breast and fauld that later split into breast, plackart and tassets. I think this is the suit Chuck was looking for.

Really Daniel, get a nice 15thC arming jack and some iron cap. A gunner wouldn't be expected to wear plate harness. It wasn't his job to mix it up in heavy combat, he was too valuable as a specialist.



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perhaps 1420-1430?
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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Jul, 2010 11:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gunners are usually shown as armoured in art. Think about it; out of range of hand-to-hand combat does not mean out of range of projectile weapons, and the bowmen may well have had a bone to pick with gunners. Wink
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Daniel Kwiatkowski




Location: Poland
Joined: 09 Jul 2010

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Wed 14 Jul, 2010 12:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Exacly James! Gonner must have some armour but in breastplate or cote-of-plates (did I named it right?) i cannot load charges properly. In other words I feel pain in hands cuz i cannot move them properly. Any suggestions of what i can wear (I dont like mails, mails suck) ?
Knights Convent of Olsztyn City / Konwent Rycerski Miasta Olsztyn
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Jul, 2010 5:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:
Gunners are usually shown as armoured in art. Think about it; out of range of hand-to-hand combat does not mean out of range of projectile weapons, and the bowmen may well have had a bone to pick with gunners. Wink


What level of harness are they typically depicted in? Are the armoured figures working the guns or directing them? Not that I doubt your opinion but I am curious.
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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Jul, 2010 11:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmm... I think we need to refine what sort of ' gunner' we are talking about. Early handgunners tended to be as armoured as they could afford, since they worked close up and battle could easily overtake them, particularly in the form of cavalry. The big artillery pieces that had great range are another matter, and then you have the in-betweener pieces that may not have much more range than bowshot.

I think Daniel also is having a problem finding armour that is PROPERLY constructed. Most armour makers work from pictures they saw in a book, mail is not patterned or tailored properly, etc.

jamesarlen.com
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Jul, 2010 3:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jamie,

First, you are quite right. We must be talking past each other. I assumed Daniel was an artillery piece gunner. You pegged him as a bomb on a stick guy. I didn't even think of that. Absolutely those guys were armoured and not just with a plackart over a mail shirt! Would you agree then that Daniel is unlikely to find evidence of gunners armed that way?

Second, I know of a really talented armourer that could make him spectacularly well fitted kit. Problem is he doesn't take many commissions like this or so I've heard. Hint, hint. Big Grin
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Thom R.




Location: Tucson
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Jul, 2010 2:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Although this website is a out of date I found it by searching on the Burney MS and it has a series of interesting period illustrations for hand gunners in 15th c. as well as some references for you to check on.

http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/handgonnes.htm
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