[Daniel Kwiatkowski]

Hi there! I've been looking for some evidences that placard (on jack) was in use near 1410y. i'm a gunner and this kind of armour is just great for me. I CAN MOVE MY HANDS IN IT !

Władyslaw Jegiełło will pay 10,000 gold coins for any manuscript, archeology or anything else that prove the usage of this miracle armour

Sorry for my bad English, i've come from a small country called Poland where mooses run free on the streets of capitol city, Warsaw

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Martin Fischer]

Hi Daniel,

I would give you 10000 gold-coins, too.

This kind of protection, that's known as "plackard" in the "scene", is nonsense.

The origin of these fantasy-pieces is maybe the wrong interpretation of contemporary pictures, on that breasts with textile-covered upperparts are shown.

Sorry for that & regards

Martin

[Chris Kelson]

Logically, is it not a bad idea to not armour the upper torso if you can afford it? By that I mean wearing a placard without a suitable breastplate/brigandine to cover the upper chest just seems to paint a 'stab here to win' marker over the exposed parts of the chest.

Even with a solid jack as the base layer of protection, I'd think covering the majority of my vital organs with a breastplate would be a better investment than just a placard. In fact in every depiction I can find the placard is coupled with a breastplate. I'd hazard a guess that to do otherwise is akin to wearing a visor without the rest of the helmet.

[Thom R.]

There is pictorial evidence for plackards on top of brigandine or jack in your time period. (see this thread)

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...brigandine

however there is an argument whether this was common and whether the cloth covered armour is actually cloth covered plate rather than brigandine. plackart over brigandine seems like a reasonable combination to me........... especially for a gunner who needs mobility.

there is probably on balance more evidence for brigandine over a mail skirt and mail sleeves for your time period and that is even more mobile. for 1410 remember also that the conventional plackart with large tassets (what Jean is wearing) was not common until mid century. prior to that - e.g. Agincourt - multi-plate longer hooped fauld skirts without tassets were the norm. Tassets don't figure prominently until mid century from what i have seen of 15th c effigies

i don't know of any evidence for a plackard over mail over a gambeson being standard kit. that doesn't make a lot of sense to me unless you just had no BP or brigandine available - in other words given the choice of a BP with fauld or plackart with fauld why wouldn't you choose a BP?

[Jean Thibodeau]

[Daniel Kwiatkowski]

Thanks for help with plackard problem we have our own medieval forum called www.freha.pl but even there nobody knows if it was used in 1410 or not. I will not take rest or eat anything untill i find that plackard was used in 1410y ! I saw something like in the picture on our auction site. I dont wanna belive that this is nothing more than blacksmiths fantasy. Like you see there are no foulds at all. Construction of this plackart is even simplier than a construction of hammer (hmm, did I wrote it well? If its funny then... hell yeah i wrote it well). So my question is: have someone seen it before and if soo, when was it used?

Ant now something totaly diffrient:

17.07 - We will have Battle of Tannenberg reconstruction. It will be 600 years now. There will be realy messy battle cuz we have something about 10,000 fighters !!! So even now it will be biggest medieval battle in whole europe. COME AND SEE IT BY YOURSELF

And last thing ...sorry for my realy bad english ive come from a small country where people live in tents, socialize into tribes and all they do is farming and hunting mammoths with clubs :P

[Chuck Russell]

that is more like a 1460s-80s placart is it not? the only ones from early 15thc was low to the belly. ug i'm at work and can't remember the suit it was on.

[Egidijus Stonkus]

I have to agree with Chuck. As far as I know, by that time most popular body defence was coat of plates, corazzina or one-piece breastplate. And if you will be going to demonstration I would suggest to wear something more protective than just plackart. Though it will be just demonstration, but it might get quite ruogh because there will be a lot of russians so it would something like a light bughurt. Anyway, see you in Grunwald!!!

[Daniel Kwiatkowski]

Chuck ! You can be my savior ! Where did you saw early plackart ? Please try to renember and maybe you can find some proves of it.

As for Grunwald battle, im in gonners detachment. And yes russians, belarussians, ukrainians and lithuanians are pretty nasty in battle. They are more dangerous after the battle ...gesh...if you find one, he will use old kung-fu style on you called : Vodka sneak attack !

[Kel Rekuta]

Sorry Daniel - you are very unlikely to ever eat or drink again until you let go of this fantasy. Plackarts are part of a mid to late 15thC item replacing the weaker fauld on late 14thC torso armours. The Churburg S18 harness is a good example of this transition to more integrated breast and fauld that later split into breast, plackart and tassets. I think this is the suit Chuck was looking for.

Really Daniel, get a nice 15thC arming jack and some iron cap. A gunner wouldn't be expected to wear plate harness. It wasn't his job to mix it up in heavy combat, he was too valuable as a specialist.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Gunners are usually shown as armoured in art. Think about it; out of range of hand-to-hand combat does not mean out of range of projectile weapons, and the bowmen may well have had a bone to pick with gunners.

[Daniel Kwiatkowski]

Exacly James! Gonner must have some armour but in breastplate or cote-of-plates (did I named it right?) i cannot load charges properly. In other words I feel pain in hands cuz i cannot move them properly. Any suggestions of what i can wear (I dont like mails, mails suck) ?

[Kel Rekuta]

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Hmm... I think we need to refine what sort of ' gunner' we are talking about. Early handgunners tended to be as armoured as they could afford, since they worked close up and battle could easily overtake them, particularly in the form of cavalry. The big artillery pieces that had great range are another matter, and then you have the in-betweener pieces that may not have much more range than bowshot.

I think Daniel also is having a problem finding armour that is PROPERLY constructed. Most armour makers work from pictures they saw in a book, mail is not patterned or tailored properly, etc.

[Kel Rekuta]

Jamie,

First, you are quite right. We must be talking past each other. I assumed Daniel was an artillery piece gunner. You pegged him as a bomb on a stick guy. I didn't even think of that. Absolutely those guys were armoured and not just with a plackart over a mail shirt! Would you agree then that Daniel is unlikely to find evidence of gunners armed that way?

Second, I know of a really talented armourer that could make him spectacularly well fitted kit. Problem is he doesn't take many commissions like this or so I've heard. Hint, hint.

[Thom R.]

Although this website is a out of date I found it by searching on the Burney MS and it has a series of interesting period illustrations for hand gunners in 15th c. as well as some references for you to check on.

http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/handgonnes.htm