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Jason Goldsmith





Joined: 24 Jun 2010

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Thu 01 Jul, 2010 9:16 am    Post subject: Help me figure out my head for my kit         Reply with quote

Hi there,

I am in the process of putting together/budgeting my kit.

My centerpiece is going to be a 15th century brigandine armor chest.

For arms/legs/greaves I was planning on getting the 15th century designs from Merc tailor, some fingered gauntlets, and the pauldrons haute pieces (also from Merc tailor).

That leaves my head, which is what I need the most help with.

I really like this helmet: http://armourandcastings.com/index.php?_a=vie...ductId=363
I like sallets, but I don't like the lack of head flexibility of bevors. I was hoping to put this with a gorget.

However, I am new at this, so I am not sure sure if I a missing anything, and all thoughts are appreciated.

Things I could be missing: chain skirt for the hips? Any extra chain under the brig? I don't know what else, yikes!

Thanks in advance!
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Ben van Koert




Location: Veenendaal, the Netherlands
Joined: 23 May 2007
Reading list: 14 books

Posts: 120

PostPosted: Thu 01 Jul, 2010 12:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brigs sure are popular lately. Big Grin

Ask yourself which decade in the 15th century you're aiming for, as there were many changes in fashion and style then, especially during the last quarter. You'll have to make sure the styles of all the parts match otherwise it just won't look good.


The bellows visor sallet you show is rather late, ca. 1490. It's an absolute eyesore to me when I see someone on the field in 1470's kit with a bellows sallet and it happens a lot. The same goes for the so called ' black' sallets, and high gothic armour, which are extremely late as well.
Also keep in mind that these are italian helmets. Which area are you basing you portrayal on?

You tell us that you like 'regular' sallets, but are scared off by the immobility caused by bevors. Here's a surprise: with a proper bevor you'll have plenty of mobility. It should be tight to the face and not too wide. This can be quite hard with Milanese (export) style sallets, but it's possible.

I'm not familiar with the Mercenary Tailor armour, but if you post pictures, drawings or photo's of what you're aiming for I'm willing to think along with you. Happy Oh, and a estimate budget would be handy too.

These may be a lot of questions, but they are essential if you want to do things right.
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Jason Goldsmith





Joined: 24 Jun 2010

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Thu 01 Jul, 2010 12:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Later in the 15th century is what I am going for, and I am going for a more German kit, which is one of my concerns with that helm, as you pointed out, it's more Italian.

Let me put some links up:

The brig I am getting is from Anshelm. I can't afford the white rose (and get everything else I want, so...), so this is as good as I can do:
http://anshelmarms.com/bodyarmor.html

arms: http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_inf...ucts_id=35

legs: http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_inf...ucts_id=46

I was going to start from there.
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Jul, 2010 8:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For the arms you might consider the integral splauder ones:
http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_inf...cts_id=122

For late German helm: http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_inf...ucts_id=58

A lot depends on your budget, the Mercenary Tailor's armour is very good using armour of munitions quality but it isn't meant to be accurate in minute details for a " living history " usage if this is important to you ?

I have a lot of the MT armour and I'm happy with it and Allan's customer service is AAAAA quality.

If you want a bevor get it at the same time and ask Allan to make sure it fits properly with the helm you choose.

If you have lots of money a high end maker Is François L'Archevèque:
http://www.flarcheveque.com/#

Click on English/Products/helms and you will see some really awesome German style Sallets but be ready to spend over $750 to over $3000 if you want it raised from one piece instead of welded from two.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jason Goldsmith





Joined: 24 Jun 2010

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Thu 01 Jul, 2010 9:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I definitely like Merc tailor's mix of function and price. It's "authentic enough" for me, at this point with my budget. Thank you for recommending them.
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Jul, 2010 11:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jason Goldsmith wrote:
I definitely like Merc tailor's mix of function and price. It's "authentic enough" for me, at this point with my budget. Thank you for recommending them.


Thanks, glad I could help. Happy Cool

Oh, another good thing about Mercenary Tailor's is that the wait time between ordering and shipping can be very quick if the item is in stock and not usually more than a few weeks if it's not currently in stock.

With a lot of the custom makers it can easily be a wait of months or years before they can finish depending on both quality and a long backlog of customers.

When ordering it's a good thing to give some measurements as Allan can tweak the fit a bit even on the off the rack armour or ask questions if you have specific concerns.

Usually Allan avoids full custom work so as to be able to produce a standard product that people can get quickly but he will consider some customization for fit or for aesthetic like a slightly different visor shape or brass decoration applied to the armour.

Oh, he's a member here so you could P.M. him some questions before making an official order.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Jul, 2010 5:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i would go with a sallet (german if you want it) or a chapel de fur (sp?) sorta like a suped up kettle helm. if you don't want a bevor, wear a mail standard. that way your neck is covered.

for arms, i would not go with one that has articulation. what you want are floating upper and lower cannons. the elbow should be the type that has the point and curves over the inner part. do a search on the "lets see your harnesses thread" one of the members here has just about the exact kit you are looking to build.
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
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Posts: 8,161

PostPosted: Fri 02 Jul, 2010 5:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chuck Russell wrote:
i would go with a sallet (german if you want it) or a chapel de fur (sp?) sorta like a suped up kettle helm. if you don't want a bevor, wear a mail standard. that way your neck is covered.



That would be " Chapel de Fer " litteral translation from French would be " Iron Hat ".

Very wide and deep brim with or without a vision slot.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jason Goldsmith





Joined: 24 Jun 2010

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri 02 Jul, 2010 7:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chuck Russell wrote:
i would go with a sallet (german if you want it) or a chapel de fur (sp?) sorta like a suped up kettle helm. if you don't want a bevor, wear a mail standard. that way your neck is covered.

for arms, i would not go with one that has articulation. what you want are floating upper and lower cannons. the elbow should be the type that has the point and curves over the inner part. do a search on the "lets see your harnesses thread" one of the members here has just about the exact kit you are looking to build.



In regards to my neck, I was thinking more of a mail standard, or maybe a steel or cuirboiled leather gorget (they also make brig gorgets). Thooughts?

Also, for the arms, do these have the articulation of which you speak: http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_inf...cts_id=102

Thanks!
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Felix R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Jul, 2010 7:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No, floating ones are like those http://www.plattnerei-wiedner.de/produkt_grossansicht.php?id=230

I would look for several manufacturers to get the picture. First quick buy is often...eh, well....decide for yourself. Research for a few weeks first will safe you alot of money and frustration.
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Jason Goldsmith





Joined: 24 Jun 2010

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri 02 Jul, 2010 7:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Felix R. wrote:
No, floating ones are like those http://www.plattnerei-wiedner.de/produkt_grossansicht.php?id=230

I would look for several manufacturers to get the picture. First quick buy is often...eh, well....decide for yourself. Research for a few weeks first will safe you alot of money and frustration.


Ahhh, I see the difference. Can you explain why in particular I want that type, in steel?
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Jason Goldsmith





Joined: 24 Jun 2010

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri 02 Jul, 2010 8:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also, do you know any vendors that sell this design in steel? I can find it in leather, but not steel...
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Felix R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Jul, 2010 8:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Because it is more or less the Gothic 15th style. Maybe Ben will get back to you too, with some more recommendations

In between have alook at some alternatives.

http://www.stgeorgearmouryshop.co.uk/48901.html
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Zac Evans




Location: London
Joined: 26 Dec 2006

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Fri 02 Jul, 2010 8:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't know where you are based, but there are numerous armourers in England who make that style, and Ben could tell you about those on the continent. The brigandine you posted looks good, but still consider if it would be better to go for a simple breastplate. They are often cheaper than brigandines and that will give you more money to put into the rest of your kit.

Think about what you want to do with your kit. You will never be able to make a knightly kit to a budget, so think about man at arms or mounted archer. In my opinion it's better to have a well made kit without full coverage like this:

link

than a full harness that you will later want to upgrade. Do some more research and then come back with some pictures of soldiers that you want to copy, and then talk to armourers about them making those pieces.
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Jason Goldsmith





Joined: 24 Jun 2010

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri 02 Jul, 2010 8:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Felix R. wrote:
Because it is more or less the Gothic 15th style. Maybe Ben will get back to you too, with some more recommendations

In between have alook at some alternatives.

http://www.stgeorgearmouryshop.co.uk/48901.html



I like it, but my poor budget!
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Jason Goldsmith





Joined: 24 Jun 2010

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri 02 Jul, 2010 8:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zac Evans wrote:
I don't know where you are based, but there are numerous armourers in England who make that style, and Ben could tell you about those on the continent. The brigandine you posted looks good, but still consider if it would be better to go for a simple breastplate. They are often cheaper than brigandines and that will give you more money to put into the rest of your kit.

Think about what you want to do with your kit. You will never be able to make a knightly kit to a budget, so think about man at arms or mounted archer. In my opinion it's better to have a well made kit without full coverage like this:

link

than a full harness that you will later want to upgrade. Do some more research and then come back with some pictures of soldiers that you want to copy, and then talk to armourers about them making those pieces.


I am in the states. In regards to budget, I was able to go full out with a MercTailor style option. Munitions grade is fine for me, and unfortunately the pound to dollar exchange rate sucks. Anyone know of good gothic armor stateside?
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Jason Goldsmith





Joined: 24 Jun 2010

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri 02 Jul, 2010 8:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you go here http://www.stgeorgearmouryshop.co.uk/5501.html and scroll to the german arms in stock, I think this matches the style you are suggesting? It also seems affordable...
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Zac Evans




Location: London
Joined: 26 Dec 2006

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Fri 02 Jul, 2010 8:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What I'm saying is don't rush in, and never trust a salesman. Do your research yourself and copy your harness from a painting rather than a re-enactor. Affordable can be done in two different ways. One is by going for getting everything cheaper, and the other is for getting less but more expensive. I would always recommend the second option.

Those arms are what we are talking about, yes. You see them all over German art of the period, whereas the articulated arms is much more Italian. There was loads of crossover, but if you want people to think munitions German then floating style is what you want. They'll be cheaper and easier to fit than articulated as well.
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Jason Goldsmith





Joined: 24 Jun 2010

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri 02 Jul, 2010 8:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zac Evans wrote:
What I'm saying is don't rush in, and never trust a salesman. Do your research yourself and copy your harness from a painting rather than a re-enactor. Affordable can be done in two different ways. One is by going for getting everything cheaper, and the other is for getting less but more expensive. I would always recommend the second option.

Those arms are what we are talking about, yes. You see them all over German art of the period, whereas the articulated arms is much more Italian. There was loads of crossover, but if you want people to think munitions German then floating style is what you want. They'll be cheaper and easier to fit than articulated as well.


I definitely agree on the more is less. I want to buy once, not 10 times. I will keep hunting for munition German arms. For some reason, I had it backwards in my head; I though the articulated arms were more German for some reason, and the floating ones were more Italian. Doh!
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Ben van Koert




Location: Veenendaal, the Netherlands
Joined: 23 May 2007
Reading list: 14 books

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PostPosted: Fri 02 Jul, 2010 9:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zac is absolutely right in everything he said. Just go with what you can afford, and don't rush in and assemble your kit over time if you can't afford it at once. I don't know what your intended use for the armour is, but for a decent portrayal it's really better to invest in good kit.
Do you want to be a knight / man-at-arms or do you want to go for munition grade armour? Hence munition grade in the 15th century is still far better shaped than the stuff on the merc tailor site. If you want to go for munition grade you just can't be a knight. Sorry.

The Mark Vickers arms referred to earlier are very nice for a good price, provided they're your size.

The prices for his custom pieces are very decent too.


About these, posted earlier. The elbows are okay, but the flutes are awful.

For budget armourers on the continent, I recommend Best Armour and Armoury Marek. Beware that Marek has the tendency to make everything too big as most of his customers wear too many padding beneath the armour and that I have very little experience with best armour.
Stlll, do you homework before you order and dare to be critical.

About your neck protection, a maille standard is pretty minimal, but I wouldn't go for a gorget at all. Those come much later.
A low bevor offers much more protection too. My new one is also padded under the collar plate so it'll move more freely over the chest, something to consider.

The legs are also crucial to do right, as they should be very fitted for good movement and the best looks. Don't get me started on greaves as these are the most difficult to get right. Much has been written about that elsewere.

Oh, and something I haven't seen on your list are besagews. Besagews are very german, very cool and very VERY convenient.
By the way, I must say that the brigandine you posted looks very decent, but I agree with Zac. It may be cheaper to go for a simple breast plate like this:
[/img]
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