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Would you want one if you could?
Yes.
40%
 40%  [ 29 ]
Nope.
41%
 41%  [ 30 ]
Maybe.
18%
 18%  [ 13 ]
Total Votes : 72

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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
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PostPosted: Sun 30 May, 2010 2:42 am    Post subject: Great Tournament Melee Helm... What?         Reply with quote

I was wondering if there was a technical name for this type of helmet; is it a Great Bascinet or a tourney Helm or something like that?
Secondly, I was wondering if you fine people could perhaps direct or show me any primary sources or archaeological examples, heck even modern reproductions would be greatly appreciated Big Grin
I'm asking as I'm looking to making/getting one made for a mixture of SCA combats and perhaps Live Steel pomp Wink
Y'know, the whole fancy look with frills and such.
So yeah, any examples or info or help would be greatly appreciated.



 Attachment: 187.42 KB
Helem.png
mid-15th Century, from 'Riddarlek Och Tornerspel: Tournaments and the Dream of Chivalry.' p.75.

 Attachment: 5.76 KB
crests.gif


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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Sun 30 May, 2010 11:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think these helmets were used for combat with wooden clubs. Hold on, while I find a picture of one. I know there's one in the Met.

In Pisa, Italy, they still have an annual festival called the Gioco del Ponte, which includes a foot combat with wooden clubs, and they still use those same type of helmets (not exactly the same as the ones you've shown, but similar.)



Fantastic gallery of more photos here.

Pastime With Good Company
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Daniel Staberg




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PostPosted: Sun 30 May, 2010 12:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The drawing of the helmet is a black and white copy of this drawing from Rene of Anjou's Tournament Book ("Le Livre des tournois" aka "Traictié de la forme et devis d'ung tournoy") which was written about 1460.
The original is a lavishly illustrated work which has been of great use to historians due to the detail in which it records the clothing and armour.
This is the original image of the helmet


The weapons used in the Tournament described were wooden clubs and a special form of blunt sword


http://www.princeton.edu/~ezb/rene/renehome.html has an English translation of the text as well as instructions on how to access the artwork with the Bibliotheque Nationale website

I'd call the helmet shown in Rene d'Anjou's work a great bascinet which has been given a specialised visor for use in tournament.

"There is nothing more hazardous than to venture a battle. One can lose it
by a thousand unforseen circumstances, even when one has thorougly taken all
precautions that the most perfect military skill allows for."
-Fieldmarshal Lennart Torstensson.
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Sun 30 May, 2010 1:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would call it a "tournament helm" of the 15th through 17th century era. I have not seen anything conclusively indicating that they were ever used for anything other than behourd or wooden club, baleen, and other sword simulator type weapons. Some antique bookmarks and period comments translated in a text about old German bookplate marks seem to indicate they continued to appear in crests through the 17th century. (Descriptions of them varied so greatly that it is dubious if people using them for personal designs had much understanding or historical based typologies such as; "barrel helm", "bascinet", etc.)
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
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PostPosted: Sun 30 May, 2010 9:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Adam: They still do this kind of thing in Italy? Looks like I might have to travel there some day and see if I can join in Laughing Out Loud
Daniel: Ah, merci. Those are much better quality then the ones I've got saved.
Jared: So just call it a "Tournament Helm" eh? Well, that certainly makes it easier to define.

Does anyone know of any reproductions of this type of helmet, I think I saw one in 'Techniques of Medieval Armour Reproduction: The 14th Century', but have never, to my recolection, come across any modern interpratations of them, alas.



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fic1866_1-2armor-front-view_copy1.jpg


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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
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PostPosted: Mon 31 May, 2010 9:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another query if I may again...
How would one get into this sort of helm, as it seems that the neck is very fitted so simply putting it on is unlikely.
I thought that it might be like a sort of close-helmet/armet sort of system where you lift up the front visor, then the front part of the 'neck', pop it on and lock it down. But this assumes that they are hinged.
I asked a buddy o' mine and he suggested that perhaps they were more similar to a sallet/bevour combo, that is to say that the front piece or whole 'neck' is seperate and each bit is put on accordingly.
Any ideas or examples you mob?



 Attachment: 57.18 KB
Treytz-c1450-60.jpg
This is an example of the sort of 'neck' I mean.

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Hendrik De Coster




Location: Belgium
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Jun, 2010 3:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i believe the whole front can go up so lift the neck guard,insert head, close neck guard.
Jeffrey hedgecock has some great great bascinets and uses them regulary. he'll know how they work
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Wed 15 Sep, 2010 9:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sam Gordon Campbell wrote:
Does anyone know of any reproductions of this type of helmet, I think I saw one in 'Techniques of Medieval Armour Reproduction: The 14th Century', but have never, to my recolection, come across any modern interpratations of them, alas.


A friend of mine in the SCA has one and I've seen a few others around. I'll see if I can get some pitcures.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
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PostPosted: Wed 15 Sep, 2010 10:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That'd be fantastic Johan Happy
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Zac Evans




Location: London
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Sep, 2010 1:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We've recently done a renee of anjou style tournament here in the uk:








Two of the riders sported renee style bascinets, which have removable visors for club tournee and joust. They fix to the back and breastplates and are apparently really comfortable to wear because you have none of their weight on your head.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Thu 16 Sep, 2010 6:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Any more pictures or videos Zac? I would have loved seeing that in person!

RPM
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Sep, 2010 5:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zac: those look awesome!
I'm now even more compelled to get one! Laughing Out Loud

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Aleksei Sosnovski





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PostPosted: Thu 16 Sep, 2010 10:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fingered gauntlets? Unprotected and BARE fingers under "half-mitten"? I can very well imagine these fingers between handle of one club and business end of another. My friend once made mitten-style gauntlet that left just the tips of his fingers unprotected. He learned the lesson the very first time he put the on. You guys are crazy! Or was it just a show?
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Zac Evans




Location: London
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PostPosted: Fri 17 Sep, 2010 1:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
Any more pictures or videos Zac? I would have loved seeing that in person!

RPM


The pictures are spread across facebook. I'll see if I can't get some more into an album and post it up.

Sam Gordon Campbell wrote:
Zac: those look awesome!
I'm now even more compelled to get one! Laughing Out Loud


They were absolutelly great. We could hit the guys wearing them full in the face and they wouldn't feel it at all. Here is Graham Turner in a similar one from the joust at the same event. This helm was made by Jeffrey Hedgecock:



And the Two that we had in the crest melee, made by Emrys:



Aleksei Sosnovski wrote:
Fingered gauntlets? Unprotected and BARE fingers under "half-mitten"? I can very well imagine these fingers between handle of one club and business end of another. My friend once made mitten-style gauntlet that left just the tips of his fingers unprotected. He learned the lesson the very first time he put the on. You guys are crazy! Or was it just a show?


It was fully competitive, but the clubs were very lightweight. A couple of the guys did have fingers on their gauntlets though, but not all. I wore hand rondels, because my gauntlets effect my wrist movement too much:

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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
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PostPosted: Fri 17 Sep, 2010 6:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zac: Right, that's it, I'm getting one! Time to start saving...
Those horses look mighty well trained, but I notice no shaffrons for the melee horses. I'm sure striking the horse is pretty bad form and noone would do it on purpose, but still, shouldn't the poor ponies be somewhat more... Well equiped?
Oh, and could you give a link to the rules, as I don't beilieve I've ever come across a modern version.

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Zac Evans




Location: London
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Sep, 2010 6:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sam Gordon Campbell wrote:
Zac: Right, that's it, I'm getting one! Time to start saving...
Those horses look mighty well trained, but I notice no shaffrons for the melee horses. I'm sure striking the horse is pretty bad form and noone would do it on purpose, but still, shouldn't the poor ponies be somewhat more... Well equiped?


Certainly, that's what we have planned for the future. This is only the second year of this event, and so getting all the equipment together is an ongoing process. We hope that in the end we will be able to present something very close to renee's tournament as he envisaged it, and chanfrons are certainly a part of that. I don't feel that it is unsafe to do this without horse head protection, but I think it will be nicer to be able to go harder once we've armoured up the horses a bit, in case of accidents.

Quote:
Oh, and could you give a link to the rules, as I don't believe I've ever come across a modern version.


I don't believe there is a copy of the rules online. Renee wasn't all that specific about it. We went for the very simple ruleset of "try to knock the other guys crest off". Its fun, keeps the clubs high and away from the horses, and is very simple to follow as a spectator. We had mounted heralds in the corners to ride in and pull out the defeated competitors, as it was very difficult to know if your crest had come off. We're hoping to have more riders next year, in teams, again all with clubs. Should be fun.

Edit: some more pictures of Alans bascinet for you: It buckles at the front and back to the cuirass and has removable mellee and jousting visors:





He has had the gap in his jousting visor widened since that photo, as the overlapping lip means you can have a wider ocular. I'm still working on putting together a proper gallery of it all.
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Sep, 2010 9:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zac, my good sir, those look damn fantastic! And erganomical and effective! I like the idea of being in the joust, only to ride off and then come back on with a different visor! Sounds like a ye oldde Ironman event!
And it's good to know the poor horses haven't been forgotten! I'm looking forward to seeing their armour and fancy overcoat things.
I like the sounds of those rules, and by the sounds of it so does the audience! Laughing Out Loud
Does anyone have gauntlets with those little rodels on them? Oh, and are those 'club' (for lack of a cool French word) actual wood or synthetic?
I look forward to seeing more gear!

Edit: This thread seems to be turning into a Renee Tourny thread! Good stuff!

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Sam Gordon Campbell




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PostPosted: Mon 20 Sep, 2010 5:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh, and I'd want the visor brass or gold plated!
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Zac Evans




Location: London
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PostPosted: Tue 21 Sep, 2010 1:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sam Gordon Campbell wrote:

Does anyone have gauntlets with those little rodels on them?


Mine are being made to that pattern out of high carbon steel. The rondels are already done.

Quote:

Oh, and are those 'club' (for lack of a cool French word) actual wood or synthetic?
I look forward to seeing more gear!

Edit: This thread seems to be turning into a Renee Tourny thread! Good stuff!


The clubs are made of a hardwood core with balsa wood "padding" to bulk them up to the right size. You can really hit someone hard with them and not cause serious injury. We've got some of historic enterprises rubber covered pollaxes to use in the foot combat arenas next year. Medieval ironman is 100% the idea. If you like that sort of thing, check out the tournament of the phoenix:

Tournament of the Phoenix.
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
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PostPosted: Wed 22 Sep, 2010 1:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zac: Ah, good to know the gauntlets are on the way.
Balsa padding... Interesting, I must try it.
"Medieval Ironman 100%" now that's an event I must participate in one day!
And Tournament of the Phoenix: curse living on an island off an island, otherwise I'd be there in a flash!

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