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Matt J.





Joined: 26 May 2010

Posts: 47

PostPosted: Wed 26 May, 2010 6:09 pm    Post subject: Help with Statistics on Various Medieval Weaponry and Armour         Reply with quote

Forgive this unusual intrusion. I've read multiple discussions on this site about the tools of war--and I am highly impressed by the intelligent and insightful knowledge shared across such forums. Should it be allowed by the rules of the site and if the community is willing to oblige my request, I'd like to appeal for help in logically and realistically applying medieval arms to a game system I am developing.

After talking to people who know the subject thoroughly, reading discussions, considering things, and seeing examples of what realism looks like, I have constructed a workable combat system that follows reality. My experience and knowledge is small compared to many, however, which is why I've come to request assistance in accurately statting this equipment.


The system to represent weapons is quite simple, being split into four parts.

Damage is the first one, think of an unarmoured target for this. Separate from wounding, this is purely a matter of destructive power and effect against flesh. Bigger weapons do more damage, swords tend to do the most, things like military picks do the least.
-
--For damage and hitting your target, you roll against a Cut-off point, usually 50. The higher you roll over the Cut-off Point, the more damage you do, your weapon's damage rating multiplied. Rolling low means scratches and scathes, which do fractions of your weapon's damage.


Armour Penetration (ie: AP) is the second thing. This is a modifier to damage, basically. Swords which are lousy against most armour might have 0.5x-ish, weapons designed to penetrate armour like war-hammers might have values more like 2x.
-
--Explaining further, armour has a value. Light Chain might be a value of 10. When attacking armoured targets, you apply your AP mod to your Damage result. If you score 20 damage with an AP of 0.5x, it becomes 10 damage.
Then, subtract the target armour from this. So the 10 damage minus the Light Chain equals 0.


Accuracy is the next one. This is how easy it is to hit your enemy at optimal range, how difficult it is for them to defend. Axes, I've heard, are difficult to block, so they might get a +1 Bonus.


Blocking. This is the defensive ability of a weapon, when in your opponent's striking range. 20-foot Halberds aren't so good for defence when the enemy is up close, but weapons designed specifically for blocking would be.



Here is an attempt I made to stat some "common" weapons. I may be totally off base in places, please tell me your views and knowledge as to this.

Code:
      --Weapons--

[Name]   [Damage]   [Range]   [Armour Penetration]   [Accuracy]   [Blocking]

Dagger         6         1         0.7                 +4         -3
Shortsword     9         1         0.58                +2         --
Longsword     14         1         0.5                 +1         +1
Spear         10         2         0.65                --         -1
18ft Pike     10         4         0.68                -2         -3(?)
Hatchet        7         1         1.2                 --         -2(?)
Battle Axe    11         1         1.4                 +1         -1
Greatsword    24         1         0.725               --         --
Great Axe     19         1         1.8                 +1         -1
Bastardsword  16         1         0.6                 +1         +1


Thank you everyone who read this post. I hope to make a system many can enjoy.
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Gabriel Lebec
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PostPosted: Wed 26 May, 2010 7:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have moved this topic to the Off-topic Talk forum. Please note the description for this forum: "Discussions of general history and other miscellaneous topics relating to arms and armour that do not specifically fit our other forums."

Also note the description of the Historical Arms Talk forum, where this topic originated: "Discussions of reproduction and authentic historical arms and armour from various cultures and time periods."

Thank you.

"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science." - Albert Einstein
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Matt J.





Joined: 26 May 2010

Posts: 47

PostPosted: Wed 26 May, 2010 8:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gabriel Lebec wrote:
I have moved this topic to the Off-topic Talk forum. Please note the description for this forum: "Discussions of general history and other miscellaneous topics relating to arms and armour that do not specifically fit our other forums."

Also note the description of the Historical Arms Talk forum, where this topic originated: "Discussions of reproduction and authentic historical arms and armour from various cultures and time periods."

Thank you.
Sorry for mixing them up. Thanks for moving the thread for me. Happy
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Ozsváth Árpád-István




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PostPosted: Wed 26 May, 2010 9:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Do you intend to implement this in some sort of computer game?
A greatsword should have longer range than a shortsword or a dagger. Another factor could be the weapons speed. While you swing the great axe for a devastating blow one could inflict several stabs with a dagger. I think 19 damage for the great axe is not enough compared to the 6 of the dagger which can be used only from point blank range or thrown.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 26 May, 2010 9:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matt J. wrote:
Gabriel Lebec wrote:
I have moved this topic to the Off-topic Talk forum. Please note the description for this forum: "Discussions of general history and other miscellaneous topics relating to arms and armour that do not specifically fit our other forums."

Also note the description of the Historical Arms Talk forum, where this topic originated: "Discussions of reproduction and authentic historical arms and armour from various cultures and time periods."

Thank you.
Sorry for mixing them up. Thanks for moving the thread for me. Happy


There is always a problem with a scoring system based on realistic expectations of damage compared to a gaming estimation of damage in that a weapon having 5 X the damage potential against an unarmoured target is not that superior if 1X will kill an opponent 100% of the time i.e. is 5X more dead than IX dead ? Dead is dead !

If armour is concerned factors like mass and weight can be more important and relevant than sharpness since even a very big sword is useless as a cutting instrument if used on plate armour.

So many variables in a real fight that quantifying is challenging but this doesn't mean you can find something at least credible for scoring hits or cuts. Against armour one could handicap the weapons so that a 3X would be effective, a 5 X devastating but a 1X next to useless. Against unarmoured 1X or 5X would have very little practical differences in lethality.

Anyway, just giving you some things to think about but don't get discouraged about it all and I hope others can give you some useful insight to tweak your point system to make it as realistic as possible, but the important thing should be that the game rules should be internally consistent and fun to play.

Oh, and welcome to the site. Big Grin Cool

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Andrew Maxwell




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PostPosted: Wed 26 May, 2010 9:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What level of realism are you aiming at? Because I can see you have included quite a few rpg-isms that don't match up with reality. That's not a criticism as such- I love a good RPG- but it's hard to know what level to pitch my comments at. Here a few things I would consider which these types of games generally don't:

*Bastard sword = longsword = hand-and-a-half sword. All of us HEMA guys hate it when a single handed sword is referred to as a longsword Razz
What rpgs call a longsword = arming sword (or just a "sword")

*Spears- in reality, spears own in single combat. I have way more training time invested with the longsword than any other weapon, but if I actually had to fight for my life a spear would be my first choice. And they shouldn't be -1 to block; hafted weapons like spears, pollaxes etc are easier to block with than a sword, so long as they are not too long (which most of them aren't- by this I mean less than about 8-9' long). Any of the pole weapons except pikes should probably have a bonus to blocking.

*As has been mentioned, the range difference between a dagger and a sword is enormous, and range is way undervalued in games. If I have a longsword and my opponent has a dagger, 99% chance I win, even if he is more skilled than me (unless he's wearing plate- see below).

*You can't cut plate armour. In fact, plate armour so completely changes the dynamics of this kind of fight I think you need a separate set of stats when combatants are wearing it.

*Spears, pikes, and swords used at the half-sword should have a high AP. That's what they're for Happy

I have to run but those are some things to think about anyway.

cheers
Andy

Men do not care how nobly they live, but only how long, although it is within the reach of every man to live nobly, but within no man's power to live long. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca
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Nathan Johnson




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PostPosted: Wed 26 May, 2010 10:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

well I have used just about every weapon on that list at some time and been hit with all of them many times.
basically in real life training systems the act of blocking or striking for a longsword (or most other western weapons)are part of the same technique used for spear and pike. most games have swords giving extra defence because you can "fence" with a sword but every other weapon just hacks stuff.

unfortunately fence, as in "the art of fence" is the name for using weapons in general, short for the art of defence and all weapons block well when you know how ( axes and spears can actually be used to "fence" like a sword really well in real life).

Game systems for scoring damage based on weapon are compleat and utter hogwash in every way!
in real life armoured combat weapons either glance of armour completely or cause HUGE catastrophic failure and death, anything in-between and you just have to ignore it if you want to survive.
but in games weapons manage to pierce armour with little pin pricks that take of small amounts of health at a time,
but in real life a single dagger thrust kills instantly and so dose every other weapon, with amazing ease they just handle
diferently in different situations.
One thing though size wise, a pike isint just long its THICK and If you ever get hit with one,even a light tap with a blunt one can pass right through a 1/2 in shield and will put a dent in a breastplate the size of a tennis ball( It really feels like you have been hit with a lamp post) yet I can turn aside a two handed sword strike with my 1mm thick gauntlet and only get a slight scratch on the steel, but basically for all but the most immense weapons its velosity that matters not size at all
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Nathan Johnson




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PostPosted: Wed 26 May, 2010 10:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

concentrate on range more and make separate " to hit " tables for amoured and un armoured and you will make huge improvements over many rpg's

if you could also make a system for grappling at -1 range with daggers doing massive criticals when this happens it would be awesome Evil Laughing Out Loud
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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Thu 27 May, 2010 2:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
in real life armoured combat weapons either glance of armour completely or cause HUGE catastrophic failure and death, anything in-between and you just have to ignore it if you want to survive.


Quoted for thruth. You would be better off making a separate roll/check for armour. A bit like Warhammer 40K does. Pass the test and your armour saves you completely. Fail the test and you get full damage.

You could modify this armour check based on the weapon, the armour itself and type type of attack (e.g. bludgeoning, piercing or cutting attack). Most cutting attacks (e.g. sword cuts) would be useless against mail or plate. But you could do a bludgeoning attack with a sword (e.g. a mordschlag) which works very well against armour. Or look at a warhammer. You could use the hammer end for a bludgeoning attack (good against mail, moderate against plate) or you could use the spike on the back for a piercing attack (very good against plate). Or look at Nathan's example. You can use a spear for a piercing attack (the tip) or a bludgeoning attack (the haft).

I also agree with the rest that you should factor range in your system somewhere. Range is very important. And don't forget that range changes for a weapon depending on the type of attack. A cut with a sword has a larger range than a bludgeoning mordschlag. Spear weapons are a bit odd in this regard. It's not too hard to move closer to a spearman so you can get in range. But if that spearman is suddenly 5 or 10 spearman then it's much harder.
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Matt J.





Joined: 26 May 2010

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PostPosted: Thu 27 May, 2010 2:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

@Ozsváth Árpád-István: I intend to apply it to both a computer game RPG, and a pen&paper RPG--the rules changing an amount between them (you can have more complicated stuff in the computer one, since the comp does the math). These questions are specifically for the pen&paper version, since I can do an amount of the conversions to the computer one myself.

It's true that greatswords should have longer range than daggers. However, to keep things manageable, range is simplified into five-foot squares. Characters might also be assumed to close range with a dagger when they see a chance to strike.
-
With weapon speed, that's what I'm basing accuracy off. Someone who can strike more times or more quickly has a better chance of hitting, then someone who can only strike once slowly. Theoretically one could model a system to match the weapon speed, but one of my goals is to simplify the PnP mechanics.
-
You're likely correct with the weapon damages being wrong is this respect, I'm not certina how high the big weapons' damage should be compared to the smaller ones. Though, this would be assuming a proper flesh cut/stab, so whether it only hits at point-blank range is irrelevant.


@Jean Thibodeau: True, but that's mostly up to players to decide if they can get the job done with a less-huge weapon Big Grin. If it's a hit on the back of the neck, you'll probably do something terrible not matter what you use. "If it's a strike on the arm, the wrench will leave a mean bruise, and the katana will cut through it and part of the body" to quote a weapon specialist who has been helping me.

Very true. Armour Penetration was designed for this, so that you can have swords do more damage to fleshy unarmoured people, while military hammers are better against armoured knights.

There's always half-swording, when fighting armour characters. Generally though, fighting the unarmoured ones isn't a problem of killing them - the bleeding might take them out long before they get medical aid - it's a problem of putting them down before you inflict significant injury on you Razz.

Always good to have e different views, which bring more thing to think about, so you can get your system fine-tuned to the hairline. Due to a large experience with various games and RPGs, I think my work is reasonable is converting reality into a thrilling, dangerous, fun game. What's more, it isn't too complicated to use Wink.

Thanks for the welcome! I hope to contribute something in return for all this kind help I'm receiving from all of you. Perhaps someone here will enjoy the system when it's finished? We'll see.


@Andrew Maxwell: Well, as close to the reality I can get without making the game un-fun or too complex (true reality would involve lots of pain, and lots of waiting around bored, after all--and worrying about really minor details). It's true that I included standard-RPG tripe there, sorry to admit, more because I don't know a heap about specific weapons.

I'm aware that a longsword can be used just like a bastard sword, but I thought the latter might be slightly bigger--wasn't thinking of the longsword as one-handed, and forgot that they might be the same thing, sorries (of course, you probably get so many variants of the long sword...).
I should've included arming sword, that is true. Was using the most conventional names to start with before I moved on to statting less-used-in-RPGs weapons.

Thank you for clarifying this, I was not certain of the lack of a hand-guard would get your hands or fingers cut. I guess it's still difficult to block with one-handed axes? Would swords be mediocre for blocking :o?

Well, that's what the defence penalty is for. I could put in an accuracy penalty as well, just that I thought the quickness with give it a bonus should you get a chance to trike. For a computer game, it'd be great fun calculating ranges. Sadly, I worry that it'd get too complex for a pen and paper game.

Indeed, Armour Penetration should ensure that a sword does little to no damage against plate-wearers. A rule would be placed that damage done with a sword (except in some ultra-magicy-sword cases), would be bludgeoning stun damage from getting knocked around so hard.

Wasn't sure how good spears and pikes were for armour penetrating (though javelins are similar to spears, I guess). It's very good to get skilled opinions for this reason, to set my course more properly. Halfswording will be fun, as a means of being somewhat effective against plate-wearers and so-forth Big Grin.

Thanks Andrew, I'll consider all of this. Try to produce a new set of numbers for everyone to look at.

Cheers!


@Nathan Johnson: Wow Eek!, I hope you're all right. You must have a very good opinion for this, at least.
I've assimilated attack and defence into one roll from each character, so this is represented reasonably well. Can a pike really be used well for this, at close-range to your enemy Confused? You'd think the long shaft would become cumbersome, and that pikemen used their secondary weapons when enemies closed in.

As in, shafted axes, or one handed axes o.o? I suppose there'd be ways to block with a one handed axe, but I figured it'd be more scare-tactics and striking-first, since it doesn't look like something you can block with easily. Of course, I haven't seen people fight with axes before.

A good number of them are, that's true. I have played some which seemed to do a reasonable job.
This is what I'm going for, largely. One hit can put you into shock from pain, smaller hits can be ignored for the moment (most anything can be, when people try to stab your face).
To be fair, getting bashed around for ages would eventually exhaust you, even if it didn't get through your armour, but games like DnD are ridiculous. As for killing instantly, few things do - or need to - usually, lest you score the heart or brain. Much less pleasant that way, since your enemies and your friends can ly their, split into two pieces, and not die for a good while later.
Wasn't aware how thick a pike was, good to realize they weren't just long spears, they were BIG, extra-dangerous spears. I'll make sure to give them good armour penetration. Though, thinking more on it, javelins do hell on heavy armour, and pikes are a bit like giant javelins.

Well, I could add in range tables which are more detailed, but if the system gets too detailed, it'll become hard to use. If I can get the same/similar result through simpler means, I'd like to.
For different hit tables, you hit a random area of the target's body, or can use a technique to make a (somewhat more difficult) aimed shot, at less-armoured areas of the body. Armour penetration is an attempt to make it work how it is, also.
--~Interesting thought: I might need to give bigger swords a lower level of AP, since they do so much more flesh-damage which wouldn't apply against plate.~--


@Sander Marechal: Well, that's why I have levels of success and armour penetration. A really, really good hit could do something, where as most of your hits against plate with a sword, do nothing.

Mostly, this is what armour penetration does. Requires more work on my end, to balance all the numbers, but means less variables for players. You could use half-swording, including the mordschlag, should you decide to. I could also include Techniques for other weapons which are more effective against armour, changing their values.
For warhammers, I'll probably need to include two sets of statistics, for the ones with separate-use heads. As for getting chain to work like chain, could add in a footnote saying: "Armour value reduced by 5(?) when attack is bludgeoning."

Hoping to do that with Accuracy and Blocking, since it'd be easier on the players than a separate range system. I could lower the accuracy of half-swording, since the range is shorter, for example. If Grappling, things change.
I gave spears longer range based on this idea. It's not too tough getting onto one spearman's face, but if he has several buddies around him... they can get multiple stabs against you when you move into range.

Thanks very much for suggesting alternative means. I should look at Warhammer's system, to see if it's armour system could be used in some way. Thanks Sander.



I'd like to thank everyone who posted once again, for giving me so much advice and help. I'll work more on my weapons, and try to get them more accurate and sensible. You're great guys, thanks so much! Happy
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Jean Henri Chandler




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PostPosted: Thu 27 May, 2010 8:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matt, I sympathise with your effort and can tell you from experience you have a difficult task ahead of you.

I agree with what the other folks said, ditto on the D&Disms like what a longsword is, the value of a spear et-al. I'll just add my $.02 in support of what they said:

Reach should have more of an effect than an extra square of distance (or not). As others upthread pointed out, reach is always undervalued in games, as is defensive use of weapons, which is why a staff or a spear usually isn't a good weapon in games but it's very good in real life.. A longer reach gives you a big advantage in striking first. Of course once the range is closed it's the opposite and the shorter weapon gets the edge, different weapons work better at different ranges, which can be hard to cope with in a game. And a weapon can be useful at short or long range depending on how it is used... for example a spear used one-handed with a shield is very effective at long range but not so much close-in. But a spear used two-handed by an experienced martial artist (i.e. like a staff) is effective at both long and short range. Same with a longsword used with half-swording techniques.

Daggers are better armor-piercing weapons than any type of axe. Daggers generally tend to be badly underrated in all RPG and Computer games, as if a 12" blade is a sort of nuisance weapon like a mosquito, which is another annoying DnDism. This is basically becuase most games only really model one value for a weapon, damage, and everybody knows daggers aren't supposed to be as important as swords. The truth is not all Medieval warriors carried swords, but everyone had a knife or a dagger for very good reasons. Similarly, axes don't cut through metal armor except in Anime films and World of Warcraft. You really can't cut through metal armor like mail or plate harness with any hand weapon except maybe a large polearm. Axes aren't generally good armor-pericing weapons at all unless there is a back-spike or hammer (although they are good at cutting up wooden shields). In fact if you are going to model armor- piercing ability you should include specialist armor-piercing weapons like war-hammers, war-picks, roundel daggers, estoc, halberds, katars, etc. Once you model this factor suddenly there is a reason for such weapons.

Daggers also have real defensive value, especially in conjunction with another weapon, though they block better vs. some attacks (thrusts) than others. Hence the blocking dagger and the main gauche, which were the principle defense in some fighting systems we see in many of our surviving rapier manuals for example. Thrusting weapons like spears and daggers and certain types of swords will generally have better armor penetration than cutting weapons. Effectively a weapon like a mace which is designed for crushing is also an armor-piercing weapon.

I'm not sure a sword does more damage than an axe, though as people have pointed out it can be a moot point. If you look at test-cutting videos, an axe will carve though a few more inches of flesh and bone typically than a sword will, but potentially a good quality example of either weapon in the hands of an experienced user will cause catastrophic damage to human flesh (easily enough to sever an arm, for example). The main advantage of a sword over other hand weapons is in it's versatility in both attack and defense it's and speed.

I wrote an RPG book called Weapons of the Ancient World with realistic stats for about 100 pre-industrial weapons, including reach and speed and defensive values. I'll send you a free copy of the PDF if you like, just PM me. If you are making some OGL based game (5 foot squares kind of sounds that way) everything in the book is open-source ('Open Game Content' according to the OGL license) so you can borrow ideas freely, though it is appreciated if you credit us as a source if you use our data. There is also an extensive bibliogrophy of primary and secondary sources for pre-industrial armor and weapons and armed combat that you can use for your own research.

I also agree Warhammer FRPG is a pretty good place to look, though I suspect the 1st edition is a bit better than the current one. I've heard some good things about GURPS 4E though I haven't seen it, I heard a rumor one of the prominent members of this forum is working on their Martial Arts suppliment with them. You should look at Riddle of Steel as well it was written by Jake Norwood who is a prominent Renaissance Martial Arts instructor and current director of HEMA Alliance. (by way of disclosure, I wrote the weapons supplement for Riddle of Steel a few years ago). Burning Wheel is also worth a look though they take a more abstract approach to specific weapons.

Hope that helps,

J

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Andrew Maxwell




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PostPosted: Thu 27 May, 2010 2:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Firstly, let me just echo the comment that what you're doing is a big task, and really hard to get right. Ultimately, you will have to sacrifice realism in places to get a playable game. It's always good when someone really makes the effort to get it right though, so I applaud you for that.

Now to a few more comments:
Matt J. wrote:
I'm aware that a longsword can be used just like a bastard sword, but I thought the latter might be slightly bigger--wasn't thinking of the longsword as one-handed, and forgot that they might be the same thing, sorries (of course, you probably get so many variants of the long sword...).


There are quite a few differing weapons which fit into the category of longsword, it's a bit problematical like that. The main issue though isn't so much that a bastard sword can be used as a longsword, it's that the terms are entirely interchangeable. If it were me, I would just use one of those terms (for preference I would use longsword). In period they were often just called a sword, they weren't as big on precise categorisation as we are now. "Longsword" covers all swords which have a grip long enough for two-handed use but which can also use one-handed techniques. Oh, and these types of swords can be used one-handed with a shield- see Gladiatoria Fechtbuch (from memory the Vienna) for period depictions of just that.

Quote:
Thank you for clarifying this, I was not certain of the lack of a hand-guard would get your hands or fingers cut. I guess it's still difficult to block with one-handed axes? Would swords be mediocre for blocking :o?


You block in a different way because you don't have a handguard (although polearms often have rondels for this purpose); swords aren't mediocre for blocking by any means, it's just that a polearm has an edge over them. Sorry I can't answer for axes, I haven't fought with them.

Quote:
Indeed, Armour Penetration should ensure that a sword does little to no damage against plate-wearers. A rule would be placed that damage done with a sword (except in some ultra-magicy-sword cases), would be bludgeoning stun damage from getting knocked around so hard.


The thing is, if you get hit in the hand you might well break fingers (gauntlets are good but not great); but if you get hit by a sword say in the breastplate (which has textile protection underneath for shock absorption), it's not going to do anything at all. There probably shouldn't be damage at all from a sword cut against plate unless it's to the hands or head. You really need to donnerschlag/ schlachenden ort/ mordschlag (those mean respectively "thunderstrike", "battering point" and "murderstrike", but they're all the same thing) or halbschwert to do any real damage.

Jean Henri Chandler wrote:
I've heard some good things about GURPS 4E though I haven't seen it


The GURPS 4E Martial Arts rules are the best I've seen by a long way as far as medieval combat goes (and they even have a section on 15thC German Longsword Wink). I'd put them at about 60% accuracy (for comparison I'd give DnD maybe 10%).

cheers
Andy

Men do not care how nobly they live, but only how long, although it is within the reach of every man to live nobly, but within no man's power to live long. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca
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Nathan Johnson




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PostPosted: Thu 27 May, 2010 5:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Can a pike really be used well for this, at close-range to your enemy ? You'd think the long shaft would become cumbersome, and that pikemen used their secondary weapons when enemies closed in.

In a fight with pole weapons the opportunity to draw your sword rarley arises, because the way you fight with them is to hook or push your opposing lines weapons pushing them up into the air or more effectively into the ground and stand on the tip and hope one of your buddys takes him out ,but either way when the weapons connect you get to grappling range by getting your opponents weapon point out of line and sliding up the shaft of his and pretty much tackling him. You try not to let go of weapon shafts because keeping pressure on them is usually binding up an enemy
In every mock fight where I have used pole arms I have ended up drawing my dagger but only gotten to draw my sword once.( not that I havent wanted to)

As in, shafted axes, or one handed axes o.o? I suppose there'd be ways to block with a one handed axe, but I figured it'd be more scare-tactics and striking-first, since it doesn't look like something you can block with easily. Of course, I haven't seen people fight with axes before.]

With a one handed axe you can block with the top edge of the blade and hook with the bottom edge, thats what the crescent or wedge shape is for Wink you can do the same with a two handed axe but it also blocks like a staff as well.

Sorry the quote function kept messing up for some reason.[/quote]
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Ozsváth Árpád-István




Location: Romania
Joined: 27 Apr 2008

Posts: 131

PostPosted: Thu 27 May, 2010 9:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Andrew Maxwell wrote:
Ultimately, you will have to sacrifice realism in places to get a playable game.


I agree with that, real fights are not so spectacular like in the movies. Even one on one fights must had been rare. If you look at riots you will notice that's all about 4-5 guys separating their victim from the group and beating the living s*** out of him. I don't think human nature changed so much over the centuries.
In a real fight usually who inflicts the first critical hit wins.
Plate armor offers excellent protection, but a heavy blow on a helmet with a battle axe (or even with a sword) can knock you unconscious or even break your neck.
Reach is very important, never underestimate a pitchfork Happy

It's hard to make a realistic game, because in reality almost every weapon can cripple or kill a human in a single hit. Battles are decided by skill and luck.

You can make a "Rock-paper-scissors" combat system where every configuration has it's nemesis. Try to keep it simple yet challenging. Let players outsmart each other. For this is very important to have a clear and efficient combat system. Use a medium variety of weapons and armors. If you have 10 similar this will make the game confusing and boring. Try to introduce some unique items too, i really like those.
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Thu 27 May, 2010 9:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pikes are a special case of polearms. MOST polearms are quite usable even at close ranges...the pike...umm isn't. Don't assume all pole weapons are used like pikes because they aren't.
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Nathan Johnson




Location: Australia
Joined: 05 Apr 2008

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PostPosted: Thu 27 May, 2010 10:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Didit mean to infer that thay were, I only used the word polearms because I was trying to describe fighing with mixed weapons in a predominantly pike situation. like when I metioned hooking I ment by the halberdiers, so sorry for lumping stuff togeather.

This stuff is hard for me to explane without using visuals and a todeller is "helping" me
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Walter S




Location: Czech Republic
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri 28 May, 2010 6:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ozsváth Árpád-István wrote:
It's hard to make a realistic game, because in reality almost every weapon can cripple or kill a human in a single hit.


That applies mostly to unarmored combat though. With armor, plate particularly, combatants can fight each other for quite long before one gains upper hand - period description of duels between armored knights support this.
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Matt J.





Joined: 26 May 2010

Posts: 47

PostPosted: Fri 28 May, 2010 6:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

@Jean Henri Chandler: Indeed, making a system so that it's realistic but simple and easy to play is very hard on the creator. It's good I'm more-or-less down to statistics.

I was thinking of the Bastard sword as somewhat larger version of the longsword, in this case. Forgot how interchangeable they are.
Quote:
With the Spear values, I think I'll make a "half-spearing" technique, that gives it different stats. I'll also want to increase the spear's Armour Penetration somewhat.... question is, is it around 1.1-ish, or 0.9-ish? Defence might also be increased to +1, maybe Accuracy too...? It'll have a penalty to accuracy when you're past the optimal range (2), so you'll need to swap to half-spearing's range of 1.
Halfspearing would have a reach of 1, and require you to have both hands free. I'd suppose it'd decrease damage, but increase armour penetration like Halfswording does?

Note, this isn't an actual quote, it's just my way of separating this bit and drawing attention to it.Just trying to work out the range of the values.


Well, it can also net a bonus to Accuracy. I've just been unsure how was the right way to do it. Larger weapons have greater reach, but they also move slower in the air. Maybe a Blocking bonus is better, since larger weapons' reach makes it harder for the enemy to approach? While getting an accuracy penalty for being slower.
There are ways to have a proper system of reach, but it'd be very bogful on combat for a non-computer RPG. If the system gets too many things to track, it'll get that players and GMs simply forget one or two things each round.

At grappling range, yes, daggers are great for dealing with armour. The statistics for daggers listed, is for when you aren't grappling, and need to get close enough to even consider sliding your blade through a crack.
Well, as far as plate is concerned at least. Axes don't have too high a damage level or armour penetration based on this fact, them being decent against armour, but not the best.
I do plan to have plenty of anti-armour weapons. Military picks, warhammers, etc., doing less damage than swords and axes, but also one of the few ways to effectively fight plate armour.

Hmm... Are views conflicting here? Andrew was saying he would almost definitely win against someone with a dagger. Perhaps the explanation is that daggers get reduced Accuracy due to shortness, but increased Defence since they're good for parrying. That sound right?
-- Big heavy things tend to work well against armour. Rocks, for example, are surprisingly effective against most armours.

Basing an amount of this off the mod "Realistic Combat Model" for Mount and Blade. I've talked to the creator of the stats-adjustment quite a bit. He'd done a lot of study of history, and some of his own combat tests--as well as having gotten into a few bloody fights. It's true that at times he had to sacrifice certain details due to the engine, and that his math skills were stretched, however.
Not doubting your saying, I'm just trying to mediate the knowledge between. After all, get three people to describe the same thing, and it'll sound like three different things.
--
The sword's main reason for such use is, as you say, versatility. Just that I've been lead to believe that it's better against unarmoured targets than an axe would be (though an axe would cut a deeper chunk).

Wow O8. Yes, I'd very much like to read such a detailed book. Thank you very much Jean Happy!
I'll definitely have to consider adding in proper range mechanics now, since I don't want to distort statistics you will have written out carefully. I'll make sure to give credit for anything and everything I'm lent.
---
At the moment, this system isn't something I plan to publish. My knowledge of how the OGL licence works is limited. When the system is finished, and balanced, I'll probably look more into things. I won't make money off this system without first consulting you, either way.

Well, theoretically, my system sort of does that. If you don't roll a good success, you don't do a lot of damage. If the enemy is wearing armour and you don't do a lot of damage, you'll do no damage. Armour Penetration can help, or hinder you even further.
One thing I heard about GURPS was the "Naked Dwarf rule". Basically, a freshly-made, naked dwarf, could be made to be more invulnerable than a knight in full-plate. So they made a rule that if you're naked, any hit will cause a low level of damage. That might've been for an earlier version, though, and it could've been the simplified version of the rules.
I've played TRoS before, it was a great inspiration to me for this system.
Heard of burning wheel, but have yet to try out the system. I might get time to soon.

Thanks J, that was a lot of help! Big Grin I might put off working out exact statistics till I've seen your writings on it, and leave it as more abstract details as to how fighting with weapons works.


@Andrew Maxwell: Thank you for the encouragement Happy. I will, sadly, need to sacrifice realism in places--not because the mechanics are impossible to make, but because it'd be too ridiculous to calculate true realism, besides acting it out physically (which will get you arrested or killed and not be fun). A computer-version of this would be better for true simulation.

One method of doing this would be to have a stat-range. Something like: "Longsword: 12 to 17 DMG etc.". However, it wouldn't scale in a way where you can simply pick one out from the middle range. So it'd require variations written up, or rules for how you select a weapon.
Best way is to have a footnote or something that the longsword is also called the bastardsword. I'm aware they can be used with a shield also Wink.

I'll need to watch a video for how they're used. I guess a bonus to defence due to reach is appropriate. The question with "mediocre" is that if all weapons ended up just as good for blocking depending on how you use them... everything would be o.o". I'm guessing that isn't the case.

I'm planning on having "Stun" wound to certain areas. Basically, things like a punch/bludgeon in the face will flinch you and interrupt your attack, whereas things like too much force on your hands/fingers would cause breakages. I plan to have those moves--as soon as I learn which one is which x.x"... I think I'll need help on getting all the Techniques in combat correct, as well.

DnD is 10% accurate O_O. Well, I should do pretty well then xD.

Thanks Andy!


@Nathan Johnson: In game-terms, that sounds like a Weapon Knock-Away as they get close, followed by a Pin aimed at the weapon if it goes well, falling back to a Block'n'Tackle should they get close. Techniques are fun Big Grin.
However, let's say you didn't use fancy moves (which would be totally stupid, but, anyway), like a more movie-ish situation. If someone with a sword/whichever gets into close range, how hard would parrying and attacking become? IN some ways, modelling what happens if you fight like an idiot doesn't make sense, but there are times people will fight like idiots :P. -- I guess pikes are still relatively hard - compared to most weapons - to hit with at optimal range, since you're stuck mostly with thrusts?

I considered that... just that I thought it'd be easy for a skilled fighter to slide or angle their weapon into you. Maybe not, it's hard to visualize all the details.

Yeah, the forum's system for adding in bolding/etc. is one of my least favourite. Easier to type it in, I find.


@Ozsváth Árpád-István: I still find some real fights more exciting, actually. Some movies' action scenes just seem... long, like they're filling in time almost. Good/plausible reasons for the fight to continue so long is different, of course. Note that I'm not thinking of fights in huge battles, they would need different rules to an extent. Thinking more of small skirmishes: The noble being mugged by 5 ruffians, the 9 elite knights taking the 24 bandits as they sleep, an adventurer duelling for his honour, etc.. Skirmishes rarely having as many as 20 people.
--
Or, no one wins. The guy who you've put into a state of certain death is still conscious for another three seconds, and wounds you similarly before going down. Or you both stab each other simultaneously.
The Stun Wound system will need to account for that... Hmm... First, assuming no damage gets through the armour value, the question of how much effect the helmet actually has against the Stun.
--
Unless the reach goes over a five-foot square, I try to do it via Accuracy and Blocking bonuses and penalties. Saves a tricky system, where you need to calculate slight movement and weapon lengths and optimal ranges. That is good for a computer game, though.

That's what I'm aiming for! With a good Wounding system, any decent hit in the right place will kill, unless you have tons of armour in the way. Healing magic is handy to stop people getting crippled too much.

Hoping for this to happen on it's own, from the weapons and armour functioning as they do in reality, in a simplified way.
Unique items... I mostly need to get the basic items working first @_@. Then, I can work out the statistics of more unique weapons and armour without too many problems. I'll separate the weapons into types if they get to many, putting aside all the extra weapons into a larger selection the players can look into if they want one of those.


@P. Cha: I need people to give me more clear points as to advantages and disadvantages of each weapon, I think. I like the descriptions of actual situations, but it's looking like some view conflict, now o.o.
I figured most polearms were not very useful close up, like 20-foot halberds.


@Nathan Johnson: So, pikes aren't very useful at close range. Of course, come to think of it, you did pretty much say you're better off blockin''n'tackling when they get close, ditching the pike.
Besides one of those two-handed axes with a long shaft, quarter-staffs, and any other closer-range pole-arms, I don't see how the large ones would be much use at close range. Could very easily be missing something, though (half-poleing?).

Aren't kids great Big Grin?


@Walter S: This is where it gets handy with well-trained, well-equipped adventurers fighting less-equipped savages. Dangerous, but survivable.



Thanks for all the help you're giving, fellows Happy. If it isn't any trouble, taking a weapon and naming some direct advantages and disadvantage would be good. Not to say I mind going about it the way we are currently.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Fri 28 May, 2010 6:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matt J. wrote:
One thing I heard about GURPS was the "Naked Dwarf rule". Basically, a freshly-made, naked dwarf, could be made to be more invulnerable than a knight in full-plate. So they made a rule that if you're naked, any hit will cause a low level of damage. That might've been for an earlier version, though, and it could've been the simplified version of the rules.

It was an optional rule for cinematic campaigns like Conan where he runs around in a loincloth and nobody can hit him. This is why GURPS is so useful. You start with a system based on reality and you can add optional rules to reflect the type of game you want to play. For realistic GURPS games the armoured man will always beat the naked man unless he is very very lucky or there is a huge disparity in skill level. You should look at GURPS before even starting this. Get Martial Arts and wait for the new version of Low-Tech to be released later this year. It is by far the most realistic system I've seen but, as said above, it still has to sacrifice some realism for playability.
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Matt J.





Joined: 26 May 2010

Posts: 47

PostPosted: Sun 30 May, 2010 1:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

@Dan Howard: Oddly enough, I heard it the other way around, that the base system was like that, and the Naked Dwarf rule (when hit without armour, you always take damage) was placed in to fix it. I don't really know much on the matter, though. GURPS does seem to do an excellent job of representing just about anything.



Before drawing up new statistics, actually, I'd like to make it clear as to how statistics for each weapon (category) should work. I'm going to write up some common weapons into points, pros and cons almost, and you can tell me if I'm still off-base.

Quote:
Levels: Low-low, Low, Low-high, Moderate-low, Moderate, Moderate-high, High-low, High, Excellent.

Daggers = Moderate-low Damage. Low Armour Penetration (AP). -3 Accuracy; Due to short reach. +3 Accuracy; Due to excellent speed. +3 Blocking.
---Grappling with Dagger: Moderate-low Damage. Excellent AP. +3 Accuracy; Excellent speed. +3 Blocking.

Swords = High Damage. Low AP. +1 Accuracy; Good speed. +1 Accuracy; Flexible "optimal-range". +1 Blocking.
---Halfswording = Moderate Damage. Good AP. -1 Accuracy; Shortened reach. +1 Accuracy; Flexible "optimal-range".

Axes = Moderate-high Damage. High-low AP. +1 Accuracy; Hard to block.

Spears = Moderate-low Damage(?). Moderate AP. +2 Blocking; Good length.

Maces = Moderate Damage. High AP. -1 Accuracy; Slow(???). -1 Accuracy; Shorter Reach(???).

Picks = Low Damage. Excellent AP. -1 Accuracy; Awkward weapon(??).

Two-handed/Bigger Weapons = More Damage. More AP. Less Accuracy; Slower. More Blocking; Greater Length.

Pikes = Moderate Damage. Moderate-high AP. -2 Accuracy; Awkward weapon. Penalties to Accuracy at closer-ranges. -1 Blocking at close range; Awkward defence.


There's a poorly-done layout for you. If you could please help me correct it, I can start to do more accurate numbers as I get a better grasp for things.

I'm sorry about any parts I've misunderstood, and misrepresented on this mock-up. It should be easier to adjust things now, by quick comparison between weapons, and saying, "move X up slightly, and Y down a bit."
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