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Gabriele Becattini





Joined: 21 Aug 2007

Posts: 712

PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 4:17 am    Post subject: mixed plate and maille gauntlets         Reply with quote

i have found this one on internet, apparently distribuited by a large numbers of different vendors, usually at a low price.

incidentally i have found also a depiction of the original from wich the maker has taken (very loosely) inspiration, even if i don't recall in wich museum they are housed.


my questions are:

someone of you has never used a pair for longsword training? are they reasonably good for this purpose?

from wich period and culture the original are from?

thanks for help



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Craig Shackleton




Location: Ottawa, Canada
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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 4:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, those are a lot closer to their historical counterpart than I expected!

I've worn a pair of these, and ultimately I don't personally like them. The gloves themselves are very comfortable. I haven't seen an issue with durability, but the leather did not give me an impression of being strong, and it was quite thin. The mail offers some protection to the hand, but really, not much. I still wouldn't want to be hit in the hand wearing it. All of the metal is also heavy. Not super heavy, but heavier than I like, and heavier than say, adding a basket-hilt to a sword. Or at least it feels that way. The kicker for me though was the way the plates on the wrist are set up, they constantly slid down to my wrist joint, and then the edge of the metal dug into my wrist uncomfortably, even through the glove. I have thin wrists for my size, so this may be a factor. The guy who owns the pair I wore never complained about them, and seemed quite happy with them, so YMMV.

Ottawa Swordplay
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Christian Henry Tobler
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Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 690

PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 4:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Craig & Gabriele!

I'm really curious as to where that original is from too.

Craig - my friend and student David Teague made a couple pairs of mail gauntlets, along these lines, but much more useful than the Windlass product (those those too could like be modified to work). He started with the padded gloves Revival.us sells, made leather covered, steel plate lined, cuffs, and the overall effect is magnificent:



I'd use them to bout with steel longswords with folks I trust to fight with control. I'm pretty comfortable fighting sword and buckler with them overall.

I wonder if the Windlass ones could have some padding added between the glove and mail to get closer to this idea...

All the best,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Craig Shackleton




Location: Ottawa, Canada
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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 7:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

More padding under the mail would make a big difference, and probably wouldn't be that hard to do. The stitching on the gloves is pretty accessible. If I personally were to go that route though, I'd just swap out the entire glove for one with more padding and structure in the cuff. This would make them more durable and help stop the metal cuff from chafing on the wrist.

I've seen pictures of David's glove before, but had forgotten about it. It definitely looks like a more useful piece of equipment.

Most of the stuff I've done doesn't require that level of hand protection, since I use basket hilts and other complex guards, or use my buckler for I.33. I'll be needing more soon, since I'm looking into longsword and want to start pollaxe soon as well, but I've got two pairs of gauntlets under construction from two different armourers right now. I doubt I'll revisit the mail and plate gloves any time soon. Good to know there are options though.

Ottawa Swordplay
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Craig Shackleton




Location: Ottawa, Canada
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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 8:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was just looking at the pictures again. I think another factor with the windlass ones is that the cuffs flare out quite a bit more than their historical counterparts, so they flop around too much, making the edge of the metal cuff dig into the arm. If it were tighter like the originals, they wouldn't move as much.
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Christian Henry Tobler
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Location: Oxford, CT
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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 8:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Craig,

While this may be a non-issue for you, given your use of a basket hilt and/or buckler, and your forthcoming plate gauntlets, a thick gambeson sleeve - particularly a longish one like the Revival Clothing gambesons have - might mitigate the problem at the wrist.

Yours,

CHT

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Craig Shackleton




Location: Ottawa, Canada
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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 9:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That might work too. I have a similar gambeson coming. Truth be told though, I'm waiting for the Revival Agincourt arming cotte to come back in stock in medium, although at this point I need to save up a bit again before I buy it. Or maybe I'll pick one up at Chivalric weekend in person if they have them there so I can try it on. I'm assuming it fits the same as the pourpoint, but I may be wrong. They have less padding in the sleeves than the gambeson, but they are longer and could fold back under the cuff of a glove.

But as you said, the gloves are kind of a non-issue for me, at least for now. If I want something like that later, I'll probably aim for a pair more like David's, even if I have to make them myself.

Ottawa Swordplay
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Christian Henry Tobler
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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 9:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah! You're coming to Chiv. Weekend...have we met before Craig?

Cheers,

CHT

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Craig Shackleton




Location: Ottawa, Canada
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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 9:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have not had the pleasure of meeting you in person, Christian, and look forward to doing so. I'll also see you at ISMAC. I pop up here and there on a few forums, but until this year I've never been able to get to events outside my own organization.
Ottawa Swordplay
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Christian Henry Tobler
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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 10:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well then, I'm very much looking forward to honour of meeting you Craig!

All the best,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Gabriele Becattini





Joined: 21 Aug 2007

Posts: 712

PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 11:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig and Christian, thank you for your answer,

looks like if the piece from windlass are not so usable as i have tought, the pair modified by david teague looks more

suitable for WMA purpose, is a good idea. Are the maille that cover the hand, rivetted? it is possible to have a photo that show the leather covered plates, open?

thanks
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 11:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Japanese ( samurai ) version of gauntlets. Link to more gauntlet and full arm coverings>> http://s831.photobucket.com/albums/zz238/estcrh/kote/
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David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

Posts: 409

PostPosted: Tue 27 Apr, 2010 11:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gabriele Becattini wrote:
Craig and Christian, thank you for your answer,

looks like if the piece from windlass are not so usable as i have tought, the pair modified by david teague looks more

suitable for WMA purpose, is a good idea. Are the maille that cover the hand, rivetted? it is possible to have a photo that show the leather covered plates, open?

thanks


Hi Gabriele,

I made those from scratch. Yes, the maille is riveted, wedge riveted.



Some ideas for making your own.

Buy the dead sexy 6mm maille gloves from Icefalcon Armory for $150. Trash the crap gloves and rebuild it on a set of padded ones.




Buy a set of 9mm riveted maille mittens from Kult of Athena for a mere $42.95 and trash the crap gloves and rebuild it on a set of padded ones by cutting them into fingered maille.



Cheers,

David
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Gabriele Becattini





Joined: 21 Aug 2007

Posts: 712

PostPosted: Wed 28 Apr, 2010 1:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric,

very cool stuff, the samurai gauntlets are nice, i wish a had the skill for making a pair!



David,

thanks for the photos and for the imput, making a pair using the tricks that you have explained me looks not so difficult,

may be that i'll try this solution,
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Apr, 2010 10:43 am    Post subject: Re: mixed plate and maille gauntlets         Reply with quote

Gabriele Becattini wrote:
someone of you has never used a pair for longsword training? are they reasonably good for this purpose?

I have no idea since I don't practice with steel longswords. But they should stand up to lighter cuts and would look good. The other gauntlets posted here seem more practical though. The plates especialy may chafe at the wrist, depends on how well the gauntlets fit your specific hands since I guess they're not a custom order. Notice how the maille wrist is longer before the plates on the original to clear the wrist?
Also note that butted maille can be far more easily smashed open from hard hits than properly riveted rings, this probably has no serious bearing unless you're intending to perform illegal duels in them, but extended trainign even with lighter blows could wear on them over time. And butted maille tends to slip out of sewn loops of thread over time too, or eat through them.

Gabriele Becattini wrote:
from wich period and culture the original are from?

Obviously eastern europeean, islamic or indian, they all shared a lot of the armour culture and the islamic world exported huge amounts of plated maille to eastern europe during the later middle ages and far into the reneissance even. India had anything you could imagine using, both in weapons and armour and kept producing them into modern times for mostly ceremonial purposes, which meant they often were just butted maille made for show by then.

If I had to really guess I'd say indian and 1800s if the maille is butted. Far earlier medieval or reneissance, and probably islamic export to eastern europe if it's riveted but small fine rings like that.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Bruno Cerkuenik





Joined: 11 Sep 2006

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sun 18 Dec, 2011 5:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi everybody, I just finished half of my maille gauntlets, Im about to attach the plates, but Ive seen people talking about how the plates constantly slids down. Be it to the wrist, or to the outside if not tight enough.

What do you guys suggest? The only solution I thought about was to attach to a gambeson..





thx!

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