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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Apr, 2010 12:52 pm    Post subject: Problem wearing my scabbard during training (pic heavy)         Reply with quote

Hi all,

Recently I have started using my steel blunt sword full-time during training instead of just for the solo parts. That means I have also started to wear my scabbard during training now that I don't have to switch from steel to nylon and back again several times during each training.

But I am having problems with my scabbard and the suspension. When I'm moving, my scabbard is swinging and flying all over the place, severely hampering my movement. I have no idea if this is caused by the type of suspension or because I'm wearing it wrong. So, how should I wear a scabbard with this kind of suspension? What can I do to make it stay put? And if that's impossible, is there a better way to suspend the scabbard?

Please see the attached pictures and descriptions. Oh, and ignore my ugly mug and the cat wandering around Wink

Edit: Hmm, image descriptions can't be that long. Anyway, as you can see the sword and scabbard hang very horizontal when the sword is in the scabbard. When the sword is not in it, the scabbard hangs nearly vertical. The three straps on the scabbard are not fixed. I can slide them if I want. Sliding them does not help though. If I slide them further backwards, the sword hangs completely horizontal when seated in the scabbard and sometimes even tips forwards.

You can see that the scabbard can easily swing all the way back, sideways and forwards. It can swing so much forwards that it crosses my left leg and I can trip over it.



 Attachment: 58.55 KB
scabbard-suspension0012.jpeg
Here is my sword, scabbard and suspension. There are three leather straps wrapped around the scabbard. The back two come together at the belt. The top one ends in a buckle. The belt itself splits in two.

 Attachment: 66.56 KB
scabbard-suspension0010.jpeg
Here you see the scabbard strapped on. I put the top half of the split belt in the belt buckle. The bottom half of the split belt goes to the fordward strap buckle.

 Attachment: 68.01 KB
scabbard-suspension0001.jpeg
Here you can see the scabbard when it's holding the sword. When I walk normally, the sword has a tendency to bob to an even more horizontal position.

 Attachment: 71.31 KB
scabbard-suspension0006.jpeg
Here you can see that the scabbard can swing completely backwards.

 Attachment: 70.63 KB
scabbard-suspension0007.jpeg
The scabbard can swing completely sideways and forward.

 Attachment: 68.74 KB
scabbard-suspension0009.jpeg
The scabbard can even swing completely to the front, crossing my leg. In this picture, then end of the scabbard is pointing towards my right foot. I can easily trip over it with my left leg.

 Attachment: 60.42 KB
sword_belts.jpg
This is an image from the Lutel website showing various suspension methods for scabbards. My scabbard is type "E". Note that my sword and scabbard is not a Lutel, I just thought this was a really good image showing off various suspension methods.
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Brian K.
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Apr, 2010 1:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This wouldn't happen if the lower strap on the scabbard connected to the part of the belt nearest to the center of your back. Instead, your version has the lower strap connecting to the side of your hip, when it should be near the center of your back.
Brian Kunz
www.dbkcustomswords.com
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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Apr, 2010 2:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian K. wrote:
This wouldn't happen if the lower strap on the scabbard connected to the part of the belt nearest to the center of your back. Instead, your version has the lower strap connecting to the side of your hip, when it should be near the center of your back.


I don't quote understand it. I see you have made a lot of scabbards. Do you perhaps have one that shows how the straps should connect?

The straps on my scabbard are not fixed, just tied, so perhaps I can re-strap it in a way that works better. What looks like three straps on my scabbard are actually just two. The top strap is just that, a strap that ends in a buckle. The two lower straps are in fact just one longer strap. One end of it ties to the scabbard just after the top strap, then it ties to the belt and then back again to the scabbard further down.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Apr, 2010 2:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sander Marechal wrote:
I don't quote understand it. I see you have made a lot of scabbards. Do you perhaps have one that shows how the straps should connect?


The straps have to connect towards the center of the back, not at the hip.... so they have to be longer and rest across the hip and ass. Think about the scabbard suspension "hugging" your body, not hanging from it.



 Attachment: 107.65 KB
scabbard.jpg
Terminate the straps towards the center of the back not at the side of the hip

 Attachment: 90.89 KB
scabbard2.jpg


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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Reading list: 17 books

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Posts: 671

PostPosted: Tue 06 Apr, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah, thanks. I get it now. I've moved the strap to the back now. That also allowed the bottom half of the belt to fit tighter, so now the front strap is pulling the scabbard throat towards my stomach and the back strap(s) are pulling it toward my back.

The scabbard is still at a bit of an odd angle I think, but it's much better already. At least it isn't getting in my way when I move fast. I don't have a big mirror so I can't take pictures right now. I'll have to wait until my girlfriend can take a few pictures tomorrow.
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Steven H




Location: Boston
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Apr, 2010 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My suggestion is don't wear your scabbard while training. We don't see scabbards worn in virtually all images from fechtbuchs.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Ed Toton




Location: Northern VA
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Apr, 2010 11:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven H wrote:
My suggestion is don't wear your scabbard while training. We don't see scabbards worn in virtually all images from fechtbuchs.

My $0.02.


True, but I think there's also some value to understanding how it moves with you while you're fighting, and adjusting it accordingly.

-Ed T. Toton III
ed.toton.org | ModernChivalry.org
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Apr, 2010 12:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven H wrote:
My suggestion is don't wear your scabbard while training. We don't see scabbards worn in virtually all images from fechtbuchs.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Steven


It is sometimes illustrated, and also sometimes written into the text. For example, in the Peter Falkner fechtbuch, there is a technique where the messer is being drawn. An example of where its written without an illustration is the Glasgow fechtbuch on 26v: "Ain stuck von schaiden vnd ist ein not standt / also das du weder hindtersich noch fu~rsich magst", which loosely means "A technique from the scabbard and is a distress position, so you cannot go behind or before".

Many of the illustrations from the various fencing treatises are depicting the judicial duel, in which case it is possible that the scabbards were set aside before combat, but this doesn't mean that a person didn't ever fight with a scabbard on.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


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Greg Mele
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Location: Chicago, IL USA
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Apr, 2010 1:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Agreed, Bill. Also, for example, in Fiore's spear section the fighters are wearing their swords and daggers and there are plays here in there in Viggiani, Monte, etc, that deal with utilizing the weapon from the draw,.

Like anything else, kit sometimes informs technique. We all know why rondels are primarily shown used in reverse grip, for example. But I always wondered why Fiore shows the counter to someone trying to get into a full nelson from a backhold as stepping with your *right* leg behind him - afterall it works to either side. Well, it does, until you have a sword on. Wink

We certainly don't wear the sword all the time, but we do periodically do so to practice spear, abrazare and dagger, and it can inform a lot of subtleties. (Like how to fall without impaling yourself on your own crossguard....)

Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com

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Steven H




Location: Boston
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Apr, 2010 2:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg and Bill - thanks for informing me.

Ed - your point is definitely valid.

So I withdraw my earlier point.

Hmm <goes to see if he can find the pieces to his scabbard belt>

Cheers,
Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
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Posts: 671

PostPosted: Wed 07 Apr, 2010 2:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ed Toton wrote:
Steven H wrote:
My suggestion is don't wear your scabbard while training. We don't see scabbards worn in virtually all images from fechtbuchs.


True, but I think there's also some value to understanding how it moves with you while you're fighting, and adjusting it accordingly.


Yup, that's why I'm doing it. I know that historically scabbards weren't worn during duals and tournaments and the like. But at other times you'd fight while wearing it. I want to be able to do it, so I'm training with the scabbard on for now.

Anyway, my girlfriend was able to snap a few pictures again. As you can see, the scabbard is suspended much better now both with and without the sword in it. I re-tied the back straps on the scabbard to those straps are a little longer now. They also sit a little further backwards on the scabbard. This is as long as I can get them. They probably should be a bit longer still, but I'm going to have to replace the strap with a longer one for that.

As you can see from the frontal shot, the scabbard does turn on it's axis a tad when there is no sword in it. I'm guessing that's because the straps are still too short. If they were longer, the scabbard would hang down more. At the moment it's pulled a bit sideways. But at least it's not getting in my way anymore!



 Attachment: 79.55 KB
zwaard0024.jpeg
The adjusted suspension.

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zwaard0029.jpeg
The scabbard holding the sword.

 Attachment: 76.77 KB
zwaard0027.jpeg
Front view of the new suspension. You can see that the scabbard is tilted on it's axis.
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