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Michael Curl




Location: Northern California, US
Joined: 06 Jan 2008

Posts: 486

PostPosted: Sat 14 Nov, 2009 9:58 am    Post subject: Arbalest vs. 15th century harness         Reply with quote

Are there any references of a arbalest piercing or not piercing a cuirass?
E Pluribus Unum
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James Arlen Gillaspie
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Location: upstate NY
Joined: 10 Nov 2005

Posts: 520

PostPosted: Sat 14 Nov, 2009 12:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Check Malcolm Vale, War and Chivalry.
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Adam Bodorics
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Joined: 15 Apr 2005

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Nov, 2009 2:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What arbalest, what cuirass? Happy
Thin (<2mm) mild steel armour is quite easy to penetrate even at 200 pounds, while thicker heat treated high carbon steel can stop at least 800 pounds (possibly more, but we don't have any stronger arbalests now).
(I know that most wouldn't call 2mm thin, but for the front of a cuirass it IS thin. With proper thickness management you can have a wearably weighted cuirass with 8mm at front.)
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William Knight




Location: Mid atlantic, US
Joined: 02 Oct 2005

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PostPosted: Sun 15 Nov, 2009 7:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Knight and the Blast Furnace by Allan Williams. If you can find a university library that has it.
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Nov, 2009 7:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Have a care with Knight and the Blast Furnace and this section. His crossbow and longbow are such low draw weights they become of limited value. I'd look at the great crossbow and springalds by Jean Liebel.

RPM
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William Knight




Location: Mid atlantic, US
Joined: 02 Oct 2005

Posts: 117

PostPosted: Sat 21 Nov, 2009 8:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

True, his limited crossbow draw weights are a bit of a problem. The longbow draw weights less so, since the estimated protectiveness of plate armour is so much greater that the margin of error is huge.

-Wilhelm
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Sun 22 Nov, 2009 6:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William,

I am not sure I agree. His testing for the longbow using a 70lb bow which is half the draw of the average Mary Rose Bows and almost 30lbs less than the weakest of them. Such values are totally useless in such testing. That 30-70lbs draw would make a difference. His crossbow estimate of 200lbs is just plan bad.... by the time plate is around I doubt this is even close to the average. My guess is once again likely a 35-50% increase in poundage just to get to the average.

I tend to think his armour estimates are 'on' but I'd use better sources for the bow. Liebel, who I mentioned earlier, actually took the time to make them up and get real numbers.

RPM
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Martin Fischer




Location: Cologne, Germany
Joined: 21 Jul 2007

Posts: 43

PostPosted: Sun 22 Nov, 2009 10:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,

a few years ago in Germany the crossbowmaker Jens Sensfelder tested a crossbow of around 800 Ibs on a hardened cuirass of Peter Müller and the plate (C45 steel, thickness less than 2mm) withstand. You can find some high-speed recordings on his homepage:

http://www.plattnerwerkstatt.de/hp/index.php?...;Itemid=55

enoy & regards

Martin
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Mon 23 Nov, 2009 6:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin,

Are you sure it was under 2mm? Last time this was posted I think they said it was 3-3.5mm.

RPM
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional



Location: upstate NY
Joined: 10 Nov 2005

Posts: 520

PostPosted: Mon 23 Nov, 2009 7:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vale's book, if memory serves, quotes several accounts of breastplates being subjected to testing from crossbows (15th century, I think), including the results of a large order of about 200 breastplates by some ecclesiastical figure (archbishop in Germany?). It's been awhile since I read it last.
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Jonathan Atkin





Joined: 04 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Mon 23 Nov, 2009 3:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Excuse my ignorance and side step hijacking of the thread. Saying that, how would a brigadine (sp?) Hold up to bolts and arrows? I believe these were still in use at this time yes? I've yet to see anyone here debate such an idea arrows, bolts, spears or even swords vs such a medium. What is the hive minds thoughts on this? Laughing Out Loud
"If I must choose between righteousness and peace, I choose righteousness''. - Theodore Roosevelt
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