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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Sep, 2009 6:57 am    Post subject: Baskethilts from the Wars of three Kingdoms to Killiecrankie         Reply with quote

Hello! I'm a total newbie to baskethilts and Scottish history later than 14th or 15th century so I need a great deal of help. Happy
I'm interested in ordering a custom basket that would fit in period I'm researching at the moment, from the Wars of the three Kingdoms to early Jacobite rising and the battle of Killiecrankie. I love the simple looks of the ribbon baskethilt in this topic: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=17465 but I have no idea in what years such basket would be popular. If it doesn't fit into early years of "my" period, 40's or 50's of 17th century I would be most thankful for some pictures of simple baskets of that period. I would love to read some books on typology of baskethilts but at the moment I really don't have the money to order expensive books from abroad.
I should also say that the smith who will probably make a basket for me is from my country, Croatia, and he never made a scottish baskethilt so I need many pictures to lead him through the work. And just one more question... Wink I'll probably order a Del Tin blade for that project and I would appreciate advice on which blade to order for the said period. Either single edged or double edged. Multiple fullers prefered. Wink
I hope I'm not getting on your nerves too much, I'm very thankful in advance. Happy
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Neal Matheson




Location: sussex UK
Joined: 08 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Sep, 2009 7:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've lent my wallace book out to someone which is a bit of a pain. I think a ribbon hilt would be fine for this project. Single or double edge swords are both fine. Del tin blades are very popular but in my experience have been dreadfully heavy. Armour class do excellent quality blades with a very decent weight.
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Justin King
Industry Professional



Location: flagstaff,arizona
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
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Posts: 551

PostPosted: Sun 13 Sep, 2009 8:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If your interest is in the Highland types, I think the ribbon hilts probably fit your period best. If your leanings are more toward Lowland and English styles then the early "Irish" style, the Twysden style and perhaps the SW11 style are good examples. Most of the later styles which are regarded as distinctly Scottish seem to have their origins in the 2nd half of the 17th, so your period may encompass a few of these, but mostly the earlier styles.
Wallace remarked that blades from the 17th century seem to have been almost exclusively double edged, although the late 16th century English styles seem to have favored backsword blades, and in the18th both types were commonly used.

A simple example of the basic "Twysden" style, the "Irish" style is similar in the basic layout of the elements but the bars are usually of more oval or semi-circular section- http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....mp;pos=104
An example of what is sometimes called the "Irish" style- http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....mp;pos=125
The SW11 example- http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....amp;pos=17
An somewhat unusual example from your period- http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....amp;pos=75
Another example that is somewhat unusual but one of my favorites- http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....mp;pos=217
This thread shows a picture of the actual Twysden sword. which is heavily decorated- http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ht=twysden
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Henrik Bjoern Boegh




Location: Aust Agder, Norway
Joined: 03 Mar 2004

Posts: 386

PostPosted: Sun 13 Sep, 2009 11:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The ribbon hilts are excellent choises. The beak nosed style would probably not be around before 1650, from what I understand, but the earlier ones with countercurved quillons would be perfect for the time.

Broadswords were more common, but there are ribbon hilts from this period with backsword blades as well.

Cheers,
Henrik

Constant and true.
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sun 13 Sep, 2009 4:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think I'm going with the ribbon hilt. So, swords like these in the links below would be good for 1650+: http://www.themadpiper.com/images/sw4l.jpg
http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?reviews/madp_ribbon_a.jpg

And for period 1600-1650 these?
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....fullsize=1
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....fullsize=1
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....fullsize=1 (low right one)

I like these with short counter curved quillons more than long ones.

What is the hilt construction for 17th century baskethilts? Peened or screwed?

P.S. I'm discovering a whole new world and I'm loving it. Wink
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Henrik Bjoern Boegh




Location: Aust Agder, Norway
Joined: 03 Mar 2004

Posts: 386

PostPosted: Mon 14 Sep, 2009 5:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You've got it right, Luka! Happy
Screwed would be right.

Cheers,
Henrik

Constant and true.
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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Posts: 2,221

PostPosted: Tue 15 Sep, 2009 5:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice. I think I will concentrate on this one: http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....fullsize=1 with DT6150 blade http://www.deltin.net/6150.htm (Armour class is not available to me, I only buy blades available in local shop, it's cheaper and I can handle them before buying.)
Thanks guys! Any secrets about making a basket or some more pictures would ofc be much appreciated. Wink
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Gabriele Becattini





Joined: 21 Aug 2007

Posts: 710

PostPosted: Tue 15 Sep, 2009 8:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Luka,

i have an armour class basket hilt with a DT6150 blade, the blade itself it's quite heavy, it looks nice for a basket like the one you have in mind but paid attention to the balance, especially if you are going with a smith with no experience about basket hilt, my sword handle quite well but you need a trained arm for using it, if you are new about the handling of a basket hilt and if you have planned to use it for fencing or living history are all things that you have to consider.

have fun with your project, i'm curious to see the result, it could be very interesting to discover a new basket maker not so far from italy.

cheers

gabriele
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Barry C. Hutchins





Joined: 07 Jul 2009

Posts: 32

PostPosted: Tue 15 Sep, 2009 11:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is Vince Evans' step by step construction of a basket hilt:

http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/829655
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,221

PostPosted: Tue 15 Sep, 2009 1:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gabriele Becattini wrote:
Hi Luka,

i have an armour class basket hilt with a DT6150 blade, the blade itself it's quite heavy, it looks nice for a basket like the one you have in mind but paid attention to the balance, especially if you are going with a smith with no experience about basket hilt, my sword handle quite well but you need a trained arm for using it, if you are new about the handling of a basket hilt and if you have planned to use it for fencing or living history are all things that you have to consider.

have fun with your project, i'm curious to see the result, it could be very interesting to discover a new basket maker not so far from italy.

cheers

gabriele


I plan to sharpen the blade for cutting practice. I'm not used to baskethilts but I am used to heavy swords, I have Del Tin St. Maurice and Del Tin 2142 warsword. Wink
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,221

PostPosted: Tue 15 Sep, 2009 1:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Barry C. Hutchins wrote:
Here is Vince Evans' step by step construction of a basket hilt:

http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/829655


I can't see the pictures, there are little red x signs instead of pictures. I'll try tomorrow. Thanks anyway.
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Barry C. Hutchins





Joined: 07 Jul 2009

Posts: 32

PostPosted: Tue 15 Sep, 2009 1:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Try this link to start, it should get you to the step by step section

http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/listing/user/vevans
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Sep, 2009 2:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I had to register to see the pictures. Now it's ok.
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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Posts: 2,221

PostPosted: Tue 15 Sep, 2009 4:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Henrik Bjoern Boegh wrote:
You've got it right, Luka! Happy
Screwed would be right.

Cheers,
Henrik


Are there historical examples of peened baskethilts from the first half of the 17th century? I prefer peening on my swords and would like to have this one peened too if it's historical. Actually I thought screwed pommels became a norm much later...
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sun 20 Sep, 2009 4:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
Henrik Bjoern Boegh wrote:
You've got it right, Luka! Happy
Screwed would be right.

Cheers,
Henrik


Are there historical examples of peened baskethilts from the first half of the 17th century? I prefer peening on my swords and would like to have this one peened too if it's historical. Actually I thought screwed pommels became a norm much later...


Anything new about this? Anyone?

Btw, my smith surprised me in a very nice way, he said if he was to forge weld the basket from a few parts, the basket, pommel, grip and quillons of course included, would cost me about 400kn, that's about $80. Good luck for me that he's not famous yet. Wink
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Gabriele Becattini





Joined: 21 Aug 2007

Posts: 710

PostPosted: Sun 20 Sep, 2009 4:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

peening is enterely correct for the early 1600s, the price that your smith has asked you is very low considering that is a custom work, i'm eager to see the result.

cheers

gabriele
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Sep, 2009 4:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yep, it's really cheap. What do you guys think about this blade for this project? I like double fullers: http://minishop.t-com.hr/replikart/ProductDet...amp;gid=72

Edit: The photo of the sword is no longer visible on the link I posted. It is discontinued Windlass Sword of Granson, I have an opportunity to buy it for a relatively low price.


Last edited by Luka Borscak on Wed 23 Sep, 2009 11:58 am; edited 2 times in total
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Mark Millman





Joined: 10 Feb 2005

Posts: 228

PostPosted: Wed 23 Sep, 2009 8:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Mr. Borscak,

On Tuesday 15 September 2009, you wrote:
Henrik Bjoern Boegh wrote:
You've got it right, Luka! :)
Screwed would be right.

Cheers,
Henrik

Are there historical examples of peened baskethilts from the first half of the 17th century? I prefer peening on my swords and would like to have this one peened too if it's historical. Actually I thought screwed pommels became a norm much later...

On screw-fitted basket-hilted swords of the seventeenth century, the pommel doesn't screw directly to the tang. Frequently a capstan nut passes through the pommel and screws to the tang. The tang is threaded, the nut fits over it like a sleeve, and the pommel is drilled with a hole wide enough to accommodate the nut. The nut flares where it emerges from the pommel to fix everything in place, and sometimes has a small globular terminal that's pierced so that a metal bar can be used as a wrench to loosen and tighten the nut. The second photo in this thread clearly shows a pierced capstan nut at the end of the pommel, and E. B. Erickson talks about undoing it to replace the grip. Near the bottom of this thread's first page, there's a photo of two British military broadswords; the right-hand one shows both the overall shape of the nut as it appears in place and the pierced terminal. Finally, Thomas McDonald shows photos of one of his E. B. Erickson basket-hilts disassembled, about half-way down the first page of this thread. Note in this case that the capstan nut is not pierced, and has a cylindrical rather than a globular terminal.

In fact, this construction is fairly common on several types of seventeenth-century British swords. Sean Flynt talks briefly about it in the second post on this thread.

Often a conventional pommel nut screws to the tang. In such cases the tang is usually further peened over the nut. And of course if a threaded pommel is pierced through, there's nothing to prevent the tang from being peened in addition to the screw-fitting--although threading the pommel itself rather than a pommel nut seems to be unusual until quite late. Naturally these constructions are difficult to distinguish from peened assembly without threading, unless one X-rays or dismounts the sword.

I hope that this proves helpful.

Best,

Mark Millman
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Wed 23 Sep, 2009 11:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, interesting threads with some beautiful weapons pictured. Thanks Mr. Millman.
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Henrik Bjoern Boegh




Location: Aust Agder, Norway
Joined: 03 Mar 2004

Posts: 386

PostPosted: Thu 01 Oct, 2009 3:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the description, Mark.

The basket hilt I've got by Eljay is made the same way as the kilji bladed sword in one of the posts you've shown.

I noticed the same type of nut on many swords while I was in Scotland recently, but on some of the earlier ones (from late 16th to early mid 17th century) I saw simply peened tangs. Sorry, no photos. But if ever you go to Scotland visit Blair Castle in Blair Atholl. Amazing collection from late 16th century to 19th century basket hilts. Many, many loooooverrrrrly basket hilts there.

Cheers,
Henrik

Constant and true.
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