Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > A Sallet with somewhat longer visier Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Boris R.





Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 143

PostPosted: Sun 02 Aug, 2009 1:54 pm    Post subject: A Sallet with somewhat longer visier         Reply with quote

i found this


http://www.kovex-ars.cz/routines/resize_image...vodoznak=1

http://www.kovex-ars.cz/routines/resize_image...vodoznak=1

http://www.kovex-ars.cz/routines/resize_image...vodoznak=1

http://www.kovex-ars.cz/routines/resize_image...vodoznak=1

http://www.kovex-ars.cz/routines/resize_image...vodoznak=1

helmet on a Czech site http://www.kovex-ars.cz/

now I know that sallet usually comes with a bevor and that rendered the longer visier unprobable, but i'm intrigued if anyway this type of sallet ever existed, historically?

thanks
View user's profile Send private message
Kjell Magnusson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 10 Jun 2004

Posts: 123

PostPosted: Sun 02 Aug, 2009 4:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm having a hard time seeing how deep exactly that one is due to the photo angles, but there is one sallet in the Royal Armoury in Stockholm which also goes pretty far down the face.


 Attachment: 141.16 KB
[ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message
Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Sun 02 Aug, 2009 4:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't make out the pictures you posted very well, but if I understand what you're saying, the visor extends down so that no bevor is required, correct?

If so, there is a picture of a sallet like that in Boardman, A., The Medieval Soldier in the Wars of the Roses, Sutton Publishing, 1998, p. 35. The visor extend down well blow the wearer's chin, and is shaped to cup the chin to an extent. The caption says that the helmet is from St. Michael's Church, Caerhays (in Cornwall), and is supposed to have belonged to a man who fought for Henry Tudor at Bosworth in 1485. Unfortunately, I've never found a copy of this picture on the web.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Boris R.





Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 143

PostPosted: Sun 02 Aug, 2009 11:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

@Kjell Magnusson - this one


http://www.kovex-ars.cz/routines/resize_image...vodoznak=1

due to the extended visor width looks even more akin to the Stockholm piece

@Hugh Knight - so this helmet's visor lower part extended and curved inward as to protect the chin, as in maybe milanese Bellows visor Sallet? http://www.ageofarmour.com/instock/bellows2.jpg

and do you happen to know from where could this book be ordered?

thanks for your replies!
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,210

PostPosted: Sun 02 Aug, 2009 11:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A longer visor might certainly make a bevor less essential but even a deep one would leave the neck exposed !

A gorget or a maille high collared standard might in this case replace a bevor and be preferred as a bevor can be uncomfortable as far as getting air to breathe is concerned.

A short visor might just go as low as the bottom of the nose and a longer one the mouth but leave the chin exposed.

Funny how exposed and vulnerable that chin seems compared to when one is wearing an open face sallet or any other helm that leaves the face fully exposed ! Mostly, I think because one might forget about one's expose chin more than one's full face being exposed i.e. a false sense of safety by forgetting about the chin or in reverse an enhanced fear for one's exposed chin !

With a sallet with a longer/deeper visor I would think that one could choose a bevor protecting the neck and chin but stop at mouth level and get the same protection as a narrow visor and a high bevor ?

Ideally one should have a sallet and bevor optimized to work well together.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Mon 03 Aug, 2009 1:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Boris R. wrote:
@Hugh Knight - so this helmet's visor lower part extended and curved inward as to protect the chin, as in maybe milanese Bellows visor Sallet? http://www.ageofarmour.com/instock/bellows2.jpg

and do you happen to know from where could this book be ordered?


It's somewhat different from that seen on the bellows visor. It looks like a regular sallet visor down as far as most such visors go, then it flares out slightly (about on line with the hem of the skirt), and then cups back in to go under the chin.

I got my copy of the book from either Amazon.com or from the David Brown Book Company, I forget which.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Asger Kjśrgaard




Location: Odense, Denmark
Joined: 05 Jun 2006

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed 11 Nov, 2009 12:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi

I found this and thought this would be the right place to post it:

http://www.aplaisance.co.uk/15th-Century-Armo...llet_2.JPG

As you can see it claims to be a reproduction of a sallet from Bosworth - is this the sallet you mention Hugh? and if not. have you or anyone seen this as an original?

regards

Asger

Asger Kjśrgaard
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Wed 11 Nov, 2009 1:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Asger Kjśrgaard wrote:
Hi

I found this and thought this would be the right place to post it:

http://www.aplaisance.co.uk/15th-Century-Armo...llet_2.JPG

As you can see it claims to be a reproduction of a sallet from Bosworth - is this the sallet you mention Hugh? and if not. have you or anyone seen this as an original?


That appears to be a copy of the one I cited, yes.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Boris R.





Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 143

PostPosted: Sat 14 Nov, 2009 8:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello everybody, recently i found out about THIS helmet located @ the Met Museum in NYC
it is of course an italian (prob Milanese piece) but what i like about it is a lack of so-called bellows on the visor.

There is a french company making a very nice repro of the piece, but i dont want to be banned so PM me if you want a link Wink
View user's profile Send private message
Boris R.





Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 143

PostPosted: Sat 14 Nov, 2009 8:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh Knight wrote:
Asger Kjśrgaard wrote:
Hi

I found this and thought this would be the right place to post it:

http://www.aplaisance.co.uk/15th-Century-Armo...llet_2.JPG

As you can see it claims to be a reproduction of a sallet from Bosworth - is this the sallet you mention Hugh? and if not. have you or anyone seen this as an original?


That appears to be a copy of the one I cited, yes.


@Hugh - perhaps THIS ONE ?
View user's profile Send private message
Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Sat 14 Nov, 2009 9:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Boris R. wrote:
@Hugh - perhaps THIS ONE ?


Hello Boris,

No, but here's a better picture of a reproduction of the one I wrote about:
http://www.aplaisance.co.uk/15th-Century-Armo...llet_1.JPG

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

PostPosted: Sat 14 Nov, 2009 9:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Boris R. wrote:
There is a french company making a very nice repro of the piece, but i dont want to be banned so PM me if you want a link Wink


Why in the world would you be banned for posting a link? As long as you aren't a maker spamming this site, there are no rules that prohibit a poster posting of links to makers' wares. Please review our rules rather than making unfounded statements.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Boris R.





Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 143

PostPosted: Sat 14 Nov, 2009 10:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Boris R. wrote:
There is a french company making a very nice repro of the piece, but i dont want to be banned so PM me if you want a link Wink


Why in the world would you be banned for posting a link? As long as you aren't a maker spamming this site, there are no rules that prohibit a poster posting of links to makers' wares. Please review our rules rather than making unfounded statements.


It is true i did not find a time to read the forum rules, but it was surely not a statement in any way, rather just an assumption Happy

So now that's settled here's the link ->

http://jmebert.free.fr/Heaume_n5.htm

please scroll down, it is the very last one

on the first glance a notable difference is seen on the breathing holes
(on the reproduction piece they are just lined in an X shape while on the original helmet they look sorta like confederate flag Big Grin )

there is also a nice non-existant visored barbuta to be found on the same page (i am just a sucker for those pretty visored helmets :P )
View user's profile Send private message
Mark T




PostPosted: Mon 15 Mar, 2010 2:57 pm    Post subject: Re: A Sallet with somewhat longer visier         Reply with quote

Apologies for slight threadromancy, but to come back to the op's question and consolidate relevant research here:

Boris R. wrote:
now I know that sallet usually comes with a bevor and that rendered the longer visier unprobable, but i'm intrigued if anyway this type of sallet ever existed, historically?


Here's a quick quote from Edge & Paddock's Arms & armor of the medieval knight (p. 100):


Quote:
By about 1490 two new types of sallet had appeared in Germany. One type is the so-called 'black sallet' ... The other form of sallet had a short, laminated neck guard and a bowl modelled to the head, and was equipped with a visor that covered the whole of the wearer's face, making the use of a bevor unnecessary.
View user's profile Send private message
Hisham Gaballa





Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 508

PostPosted: Wed 17 Mar, 2010 12:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are a few sallets with long visors at the Wallace collection:

http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMus...detailView

http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMus...detailView

http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMus...detailView
View user's profile Send private message
Boris R.





Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 143

PostPosted: Wed 17 Mar, 2010 12:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark T wrote:
Apologies for slight threadromancy, but to come back to the op's question and consolidate relevant research here:

Boris R. wrote:
now I know that sallet usually comes with a bevor and that rendered the longer visier unprobable, but i'm intrigued if anyway this type of sallet ever existed, historically?


Here's a quick quote from Edge & Paddock's Arms & armor of the medieval knight (p. 100):


Quote:
By about 1490 two new types of sallet had appeared in Germany. One type is the so-called 'black sallet' ... The other form of sallet had a short, laminated neck guard and a bowl modelled to the head, and was equipped with a visor that covered the whole of the wearer's face, making the use of a bevor unnecessary.


thanks Mark

Hisham Gaballa wrote:
There are a few sallets with long visors at the Wallace collection:

http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMus...detailView

http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMus...detailView

http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMus...detailView


well, that are some great looking helmets (especially first and the second one), now i only need to find someone versatile enough to reproduce such a sallet
thanks Hisham!

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
View user's profile Send private message
Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,757

PostPosted: Wed 17 Mar, 2010 1:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kjell Magnusson wrote:
I'm having a hard time seeing how deep exactly that one is due to the photo angles, but there is one sallet in the Royal Armoury in Stockholm which also goes pretty far down the face.


Sorry to be the bearer of sad news, but this helmet is actually not an original. It is a 19th C fake. I think the text even goes as far as saying something like "of a type popular in the 15th C" or similar, but it does not make clear it is in fact a 19th C fake (something they should point out, I think). Looking up from below into the helmet bowl, it is very evident it is made from two halves and soldered or welded together. There are quite a few less than authentic objects in the Royal Armouries in Stockholm, unfortunately. Most are not on display.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kjell Magnusson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 10 Jun 2004

Posts: 123

PostPosted: Sun 21 Mar, 2010 2:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:

Sorry to be the bearer of sad news, but this helmet is actually not an original. It is a 19th C fake. I think the text even goes as far as saying something like "of a type popular in the 15th C" or similar, but it does not make clear it is in fact a 19th C fake (something they should point out, I think). Looking up from below into the helmet bowl, it is very evident it is made from two halves and soldered or welded together. There are quite a few less than authentic objects in the Royal Armouries in Stockholm, unfortunately. Most are not on display.


Thanks for the information. It seems I only photographed the English-language version of the sign, where it simply says "early 16th century", so I wasn't about to catch that one on my own.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > A Sallet with somewhat longer visier
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2020 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum