Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Fourth Crusade Melee Event - NYC/Long Island area Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Mon 27 Apr, 2009 12:20 pm    Post subject: Fourth Crusade Melee Event - NYC/Long Island area         Reply with quote

The following event is being hosted by Medieval Scenarios and Recreations, Ltd. (MSR). The MSR is not part of the SCA but similar. Their events are open to SCA fighters and new comers. To participate in combat you must meet the armor requirements. Given that the MSR is a smaller, local based group, they can be more flexible. We are expecting a minimum participation of 200 people.

Here is what one of the organizers had to say about the event.

Quote:

The Fourth Crusade event on May 30, 2009 will be exhausting, but no mere meat-grinder. Don't get me wrong, I like to slug it out as well as the next guy, but I also like strategy and tactics. To this end, we'll publish the full scenario rules so that all commanders and fighters can study them if they so choose. I'll try to send them to this list by May 1 (we're still tweaking), and they'll also be uploaded onto the Acre web page (the basic event info is already up at www.kingdomofacre.org ).

Some things to consider:

First, the fighting shall be non-stop and five hours long. This event will be on May 30--the middle of summer. Commanders would be wise to take the heat into account. If I were commanding a unit, I would count it as a unit victory to have 0% attrition. This battle will indeed go for five hours with no holds (meaning no water breaks--each side will have water at its base camp). Can you and your men endure? Frankly, I don't see how it's possible in the summer heat for five hours unless you find a way to rest and water your troops. While long holds are anathema to fighters, natural lulls in the fighting can be a GOOD thing, as long as the scenario keeps running. I'm an historian by trade, and I've never read of a single siege that featured constant fighting.

Attacks were made in waves--and for a reason. In between waves, tactics were tweaked, units were rested, supplies were loaded or unloaded, siege equipment was moved, etc. The length of this battle scenario is designed to nudge us toward more historically accurate warfare, not arbitrarily (rule 56.7 "you must attack in waves"), but by making it tough to do otherwise.
I personally think it would be exciting to fight fiercely for a time and then find myself sucking wind while hunkered down in a fortress with a buddy, watching arrows whiz over our heads, hoping to catch our breath while the commanders rethought their plans. "When will they come again? Can we hold next time? Should we sally? Oh crap, no time for thought. Here they come again." You seldom get this feeling because we're often running and swinging like rabid dogs for 30 minutes straight. That's not how it was. Hopefully this event will give you more than enough fighting, but also more strategy and atmosphere.

There will be some Combat Archery and some good archers plan to attend. If you love CA, it is a good chance to practice your skills against premium fighters from the East & Acre. If you are not a big fan of CA, it is a great opportunity to practice how to avoid being killed easily by it. And with 5 straight hours of fighting, even if you do get shot once or more, you are still guaranteed to get in all the fighting you could possibly want.

We'll see how it plays out.

Second, the field is rather large and we're purposely trying to limit vision, so that fighters will not be able to see everything on the field.
The typical omniscience that we enjoy largely eliminates the tension that comes with war (even our fake ones). How much more realistic to hear fierce fighting only 30 yards away, but not be able to see what's happening?

Scouts and runners become important. There are myriad battles that were won or lost because of poor intelligence. This event will force commanders to address this. Ignore it at your peril. At this event, the Crusaders may attack the city of Constantinople from different directions, and since you may not be able to see your buddies, communication will be key whether you're attacking or defending. We may be able to provide some bells or drums to each side to help in signalling, but feel free to develop your own systems. The Mongols used semiphore for silent attacks. What will our commanders do? I can't wait to find out.

Ok., that's enough for now. This is just a taste of what we're planning for you. The scenrio rules will be published soon. In the meantime, pass the word to come to the event. Happy


http://www.kingdomofacre.org/events/Fourth_Crusade_Promo.pdf

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Colt Reeves





Joined: 09 Mar 2009

Posts: 466

PostPosted: Mon 27 Apr, 2009 8:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That sounds awesome. From what I've heard of most other "battles", this one will be far more... interesting. I'd like to be a part of one of these things, but have no gear and can't really justify going all the way up to NY to get whacked with blunt objects. Maybe one day...
View user's profile Send private message
Chuck Russell




Location: WV
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Reading list: 46 books

Posts: 936

PostPosted: Tue 28 Apr, 2009 3:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

aug, i don't think i even have a kit for that time frame. looks fun and would love to make it but alas i can not. i'll fwd the info around to some friends. have fun!
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Tue 28 Apr, 2009 6:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chuck Russell wrote:
aug, i don't think i even have a kit for that time frame. looks fun and would love to make it but alas i can not. i'll fwd the info around to some friends. have fun!


The MSR is normally more strict then the SCA regarding non-period materials, they don't go as far as to require armor be matched to a particular storyline. In this event they are particularly looking for "numbers" to make the siege scenario work. For that reason they have loosened up the armor requirements to even include plastic, although it is sugested that you cover it up. What is most important is that you meet the minimum armor requirements (helmet, knees, elbows, gorget, kidneys, cup). You will need a protect your hand with either a basket hilt or gauntlet. It does not mater what you look like beyond that. The battle in not intended to be a show for any spectators but something to be experienced by the participants.

Chuck, Colt, if it turns out that you can make it, it would be great to have you. If you do not have an authorization card in the SCA or MSR contact me by PM so I can pull a few strings and get you in. That applies to anyone else too. Anyone interested can send me a picture of themselves in their armor and I can make a good estimate of if it will pass or not. I might be able to offer an easy fix to get it to pass.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Mon 25 May, 2009 6:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The event is happening this coming Saturday. Here is a link that includes scenario details and map of the area we will be fighting over.

http://www.kingdomofacre.org/events/4th_crusade/

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Bruno Giordan





Joined: 28 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 918

PostPosted: Tue 26 May, 2009 1:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This battle will indeed go for five hours with no holds (meaning no water breaks --each side will have water at its base camp).

Wow what about actually torturing the prisoners as a further leap into realism ... I won't be there for sure (other continent, fortunately) but I guess that five hours fight under the sun without water could result in some dehydration problem for some including a risk for collapses and similar problems.

[/b]
View user's profile Send private message
Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Tue 26 May, 2009 6:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No one can fight for 5 hours straight. Especially in the heat. The whole point is that commanders have to take this into account and rotate the troops. Commanders must determine the physical capabilities of their troops and stay within those limits. Taking up defensive positions is more desirable in this situation because you don't have to move as much. At the same time, you need to achieve your goals in order to win. What is required is strategic attacks.

The site is about 216 acres. From the looks of the map we will be fighting on about 50 acres. We expect a lot of young, strong fighters but also many who are in there 50's and a few in their 60's. No one will be forced do more then they can. The attacks are expected to go out in waves, with rests in between. If someone does not feel up to it, they can take a defensive position back at base or even go to a non-combat area where they can take off their helmet and sit down.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Sun 31 May, 2009 7:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The battle ran from 2:30 to 7:30. This was so exhausting and so much fun. It was a test of ones own personal will to go on. It was the most advanced fighting scenario I have experienced to date. I was on the Crusader side.

There were a total of four possible entrances into the city. The setup naturally favored the defenders. One entrance had an actual wooden gate built with a wooden beam placed on the inside to keep it shut. The crusaders had an real battering ram to break the door open. They had to push it from their base to the door. It was the kind that hangs inside a frame and you swing like a pendulum. The Byzantines could attack the battering ram and bring it out of service by removing a flag on it. The flag would then have to taken to a resurrection point and brought back to the ram to bring it back into service. There were many beams available, in the event that the crusaders got through but were later killed. The door could be resealed and needed to be rammed open again.

One of the other possible entrances into the city was a haybale wall that required a siege tower to get over. The siege tower had to be carried over to the designated wall so that crusaders could enter the city. The siege tower had its own flag. The defenders could render the tower out of service buy removing the flag. The flag would then need to be taken to a resurrection point and brought back to the tower to bring it back into service.

Another point of entry was a narrow staircase along a wall that had murder holes. This proved to be too much of a death trap and the crusaders did not make too much effort to gain access through here.

The other point of entry was a medium size gate that the Byzantines controlled. Crusaders could only attack when the Byzantines opened the door. Once the crusaders manged to gain control of it, they could jam the door so it could not be closed with haybales. All the haybales would have to be removed in order for the Byzantines to be able to close it again.

The were a number of points inside the city that needed to be controlled for victory point. There was also treasure inside the city that needed to be controlled for additional victory points.

The Byzantines carried the day.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Nathan M Wuorio




Location: Maine.
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Sun 31 May, 2009 12:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That sounds like a ton of fun, I wish I could have been there. Is it held every year? Can people under 18 participate? Are there any special requirements for armour and weapons? I'd love to be a Crusader.
Nathan.
View user's profile Send private message
Chuck Russell




Location: WV
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Reading list: 46 books

Posts: 936

PostPosted: Sun 31 May, 2009 1:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

any photos of your event? I bet it was a blast. sorry I couldn't make it.
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Mon 01 Jun, 2009 6:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan, good news! You can play with the big boys in the MSR if you are 16 and over. Your parents sign the waiver if you are under 18.

Here are the MSR Rules that include age info (near the top and underlined).

http://kingdomofacre.org/rules_of_list.html

Chuck, I did not take any pictures because I was busy fighting all day, but I am sure many were taken and will be made public. I will post links to them as soon as I get them.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Nathan M Wuorio




Location: Maine.
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Mon 01 Jun, 2009 10:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alright, perfect! I'll see if I can go next year or perhaps the year after that. I'll need to get a good kit first....
Nathan.
View user's profile Send private message
Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun, 2009 8:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have not received too many pictures. I'm a little disappointed in that. I am guessing that everyone was busy fighting to take pictures. I think there might have been an issue with a difficulty in taking pictures since the battlefield covered a large area and it was not allowed for non-combatants to be walking around the field out of armor. Especially since there were also rubber arrows in the air.

There was about 200 people that participated. It is hard to see the scale since they are spread out all over the field guarding and attacking different points.

These are some pictures someone took at one of the gates to the city. Entry was up a narrow staircase which had murder-holes. This entry point proved too difficult as was abandoned.





The entry point is at the far end. You have to get through a line of spears first. It is easy to see how a small force can defend against a much larger one because of the strategic strength of this point.



This is one of the gates that we could attack with a battering ram and break open. That body of water behind is the Long Island Sound.



This was the site of another gate. This gate was one of the largest, most accessible ones. The Byzantines had the option of keeping it closed. Only they could open it. Once they opened it, we had the option of jamming it open. Strategically speaking, they should have never opened it... but they got cocky and wanted to mount attacks against up from this open position. Once they opened it and we jammed it open, it became a focal point of the battle. At times there were almost 50 people fighting at this one gate.



This is an area leading up to one of the high walls. The high walls were only accessible via a siege tower. These people are preparing for an attack via the siege tower.



This is a strategic resurrection point just outside the walls of the city. When we get killed, we walk back to this point to resurrect. That is me in there with the big shiny shield catching my breath and some water. The enemy has the option of attacking this point and taking down the flag. That means that we would have to walk all the way back to home base in order to resurrect. If the flag was taken down, it could be taken to another resurrection point and returned in order to gain back the forward resurrection point into service.



The people who planed out this event did an amazing job.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Tue 09 Jun, 2009 9:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Someone sent me some more pictures. I finally got some pictures of the battering ram.





Too bad no pictures of the ram in action.

Here are some more skirmishes outside the walls.





That is me in blue and black with red belt holding the center.



An attack wave going out.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Wed 10 Jun, 2009 11:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing. That looks pretty incredible.

One day, I'll be there.

Cheers,
Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Fri 12 Jun, 2009 10:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I look forward to having you on the field with us Steve.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Fourth Crusade Melee Event - NYC/Long Island area
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum