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Grayson C.




Location: NCF, Sarasota, FL
Joined: 25 Oct 2006

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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan, 2009 3:39 pm    Post subject: Spatis?         Reply with quote

in the Latin poem "Carmen in Victorium Pisanorum," it says:



"et econtra Agareni concurrunt similiter,

telis, spatis et saggitis hos petunt hostiliter."
--------
"and similarly the Agarens ran against them,

with swords, _____ and arrows they sought them in a hostile manner."



Does anyone have any idea what "spatis" means? I'm assuming it's some sort of weapon, perhaps a spear?
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Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan, 2009 5:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I believe it means spatial distance (spaces). Arrows sought their spaces in a hostile manner....
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Mark Millman





Joined: 10 Feb 2005

Posts: 231

PostPosted: Wed 21 Jan, 2009 8:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Grayson,

It seems very likely that in this case spatis means sword. It's almost certainly a variant of spatha (when properly declined).

I believe that the issue here is the gloss of tēlum (appearing here as telis). Lewis & Short gives the primary meaning as "missile weapon", "dart", or "javelin", and contrasts it to arma, which means a weapon used in close combat, such as a sword or a knife. A secondary meaning is "offensive weapon", which could include swords. Elementary Lewis similarly gives the primary meaning as some kind of missile weapon, with other sorts of arms being secondary. (I got these definitions using the Latin dictionary headword search on Tufts University's Perseus Project Web site.)

So your translation

Quote:
and similarly the Agarens ran against them,

with swords, _____ and arrows they sought them in a hostile manner.

is correct; and "spears" (or "darts" or "javelins") is, as you suggest, the missing word, but should be the first-listed weapon:

Quote:
and similarly the Agarens ran against them,

with spears, swords, and arrows they sought them in a hostile manner.

These are most probably thrown spears.

I hope that this proves helpful.

Best,

Mark Millman
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Grayson C.




Location: NCF, Sarasota, FL
Joined: 25 Oct 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 223

PostPosted: Thu 22 Jan, 2009 12:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Millman wrote:
Dear Grayson,

It seems very likely that in this case spatis means sword. It's almost certainly a variant of spatha (when properly declined).

I believe that the issue here is the gloss of tēlum (appearing here as telis). Lewis & Short gives the primary meaning as "missile weapon", "dart", or "javelin", and contrasts it to arma, which means a weapon used in close combat, such as a sword or a knife. A secondary meaning is "offensive weapon", which could include swords. Elementary Lewis similarly gives the primary meaning as some kind of missile weapon, with other sorts of arms being secondary. (I got these definitions using the Latin dictionary headword search on Tufts University's Perseus Project Web site.)

So your translation

Quote:
and similarly the Agarens ran against them,

with swords, _____ and arrows they sought them in a hostile manner.

is correct; and "spears" (or "darts" or "javelins") is, as you suggest, the missing word, but should be the first-listed weapon:

Quote:
and similarly the Agarens ran against them,

with spears, swords, and arrows they sought them in a hostile manner.

These are most probably thrown spears.

I hope that this proves helpful.

Best,

Mark Millman




10,000 "thank you"s!
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Xan Stepp




Location: Ithaca, NY
Joined: 19 Dec 2008

Posts: 54

PostPosted: Thu 22 Jan, 2009 1:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just wanted to add a bit of a clarification of Mark's post, which is probably what he meant, but I could see how it might be misinterpreted. Spatis would be the ablative of the word spata, spatae; not a declension of the word spatha, spathae, but spata, spatae and spatha, spathae are the same word.
Deyr f, deyja frndur
deyr sjlfur i sama;
en orstr deyr aldregi
hveim er sr gan getur.
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Mark Millman





Joined: 10 Feb 2005

Posts: 231

PostPosted: Thu 22 Jan, 2009 11:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Xan,

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Thanks for providing the clarification.

Grayson, you're very welcome. I'm glad I could help.

Best,

Mark
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