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JE Sarge
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PostPosted: Fri 12 Dec, 2008 10:58 pm    Post subject: Historical examples of maille gussets on plate harness?         Reply with quote

Are there any existing examples of maille gussets on plate harness?

I recall reading somewhere that in lieu of wearing a full hauberk under plate that sometimes the vital exposed areas were covered with a partial maille gusset, cop, etc to save on the overall expense for the soldier at the time...I am currently doing some research to build a new plate harness and would be interested in seeing some historical examples of this (provided they exist or were the imagination of some forgotten author I read years ago in college.) I have only recently had an interest in armor beyond the 12th century, so this is somewhat new ground for me.

Thanks in advance for your replies/information!

J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec, 2008 12:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes this takes place during the 15th. The Hastings MS comes up late 15th as a good example, a man shown being armed and he has on a arming doublet with mail gussets, skirt, etc. My guess is that by mid 15th this was fairly common as you find mail skirts and such in inventories by the 1450s/60s.

I had thought it likely by Agincourt this had happened but several accounts of the battle, Monstrelet for one mention full, knee length hauberks under their plate....

RPM
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Allen W





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PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec, 2008 6:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are existing examples from the 16th cent. displayed in the Landeszeughaus Graz.
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David Jenkins




Location: Putaruru, New Zealand
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PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec, 2008 2:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Have a look a these topics

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...rhose[url]
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...rhose[url]
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...rming[url] middle of first page prisoner stripped of armour
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional



PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec, 2008 3:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the information. I was trying to find some historical precedent in the idea I had for a maille/leather gambeson.

Below is a MS Paint rendition of what I was thinking about. Any thoughts on if this could have been a legit configuration used in the early 15c?

Thanks for your further input!



 Attachment: 33.64 KB
Gambeson_Idea.JPG
Gambeson Idea

J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Steven H




Location: Boston
Joined: 10 May 2006

Posts: 545

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec, 2008 9:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

JE Sarge wrote:
Thanks for the information. I was trying to find some historical precedent in the idea I had for a maille/leather gambeson.

Below is a MS Paint rendition of what I was thinking about. Any thoughts on if this could have been a legit configuration used in the early 15c?

Thanks for your further input!


The historical equivalent of what you've drawn would be an arming doublet with the gussets sewn on. Which is a highly typical manner of wearing them.

The doublet would be laced up the front to make it nice and snug. And I believe the mail skirt would just be tied on. And no leather.

Cheers,
Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Sun 14 Dec, 2008 4:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That design reminds me a bit of Sir Richard Bingham's arming doublet in this picture:

http://www.npg.org.uk/live/search/portrait.as...p;role=sit

though of course I agree with Gary that a fabric material would have been more appropriate than leather; Sir Richard's doublet is obviously fabric.
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James R.Fox




Location: Youngstowm,Ohio
Joined: 29 Feb 2008

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Dec, 2008 10:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sirs-I never heard of plate w/o gussets untill the 1500's invention of the brayette. Wearing a gorget, the mounted knight was vurnable from below ( the footman) only in the the armpit and family jewels I would refer you to the southern knife-fighter's practice of juking (driving a knife held against the thigh into the opponent's testicles or bladder) and the Zulu practice of driving the thrusting spear into the armpit.Peritinitis was totally fatal in those days, you know.
Ja68ms
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Bill Sahigan





Joined: 06 Jun 2008

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Dec, 2008 12:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Arn't they called 'voiders'?

From HE:


http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart.php?m...0&c=25

I believe the same thing goes for the back of the leg (though I haven't seen an example of it done to the groin and lower back. Maill skirts are the equivalent i think.

Also, on this note. Any idea when plate defenses were developed for joints? ie. armpit, hindquarters, full legs ect.
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Mon 15 Dec, 2008 12:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Sahigan wrote:
Arn't they called 'voiders'?


From my understanding, voiders cover the armpits and underside of the arms, while plate covers the rest. Gussets are sleeves.

Quote:
I believe the same thing goes for the back of the leg (though I haven't seen an example of it done to the groin and lower back. Maill skirts are the equivalent i think.


I've never seen it done for the back of the legs, but it was definately done for the groin on some late 15th century harnesses. One famous example is the "Siggy" harness, seen as the second example in this feature article here:
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_gothic_armour.html

Quote:
Also, on this note. Any idea when plate defenses were developed for joints? ie. armpit, hindquarters, full legs ect.


I don't know exact dates, but I don't believe you saw any examples until the mid-sixteenth century. Possibly earlier, but I'm not so sure about that.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


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Bill Sahigan





Joined: 06 Jun 2008

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PostPosted: Mon 15 Dec, 2008 1:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

interesting, always thought that was just a skirt tucked in. thanks.
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Josh Warren




Location: Manhattan, Kansas
Joined: 01 Nov 2006

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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec, 2008 2:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:

Quote:
Also, on this note. Any idea when plate defenses were developed for joints? ie. armpit, hindquarters, full legs ect.


I don't know exact dates, but I don't believe you saw any examples until the mid-sixteenth century. Possibly earlier, but I'm not so sure about that.

King Rene's Tournament book (c.1450) features some examples of armharness with the inside of the elbows sheathed in articulated plates.

Non Concedo
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James R.Fox




Location: Youngstowm,Ohio
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Dec, 2008 2:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sirs As I stated in My post above, the first piece I could find in use was the brayette a steel codpiece from the 1600's. The best example I know of is King Henry VIII's jousting armour from the Tower Of London collection.
Ja68ms
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