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Jason G. Smith




Location: Quebec
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Oct, 2007 5:53 pm    Post subject: Historicalness         Reply with quote

I know - it's not an actual word, but I thought it'd get your attention...

http://www.medievalrepro.com/Premier.htm

The link above, about halfway down the page, has a Churburg replica armour. The fauld is of leather, and in the description it mentions it as being worn as a jerkin underneath the BP. Any ideas on how correct this would be for 14th-century use? I'm not doubting the work (which is gorgeous) I've just never seen it's likeness before. Essentially, are there any extant pieces remaining like this? Iconography? Anything? Thanks!

Les Maîtres d'Armes
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... above all, you should feel in your conscience that your quarrel is good and just. - Le Jeu de la Hache
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Oct, 2007 6:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The fauld, he says, is based on German models from effigies. I've seen what he's talking about. It is actually metal, and he riveted the separate plates inside of the leather cover, like a coat-of-plates. This does not seem unlikely for the era, but there is probably not an existing surviving fauld to show this construction. You'd have to turn to interpretations of effigies, and this seems like a fair example.

-Gregory-

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Allan Senefelder
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Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

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PostPosted: Thu 18 Oct, 2007 6:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter's pretty likely to know what he's talking about, aside from his amazing talent as an armourer, he has a museum curiatorial background in armour as well.

Buckles are due in Friday Jason.
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Jason G. Smith




Location: Quebec
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
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Posts: 130

PostPosted: Thu 18 Oct, 2007 7:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
Peter's pretty likely to know what he's talking about, aside from his amazing talent as an armourer, he has a museum curiatorial background in armour as well.

Buckles are due in Friday Jason.


I figured as much, and wasn't attempting to impugn his credentials one bit, I was curious as to its provenance. You might just be off the hook for the corrazina, after all! Happy Like the previous poster mentioned, I had read that it was based on effigies, but interpreting effigies is just that - interpretation. I'm just looking for reassurances, I guess, as it seems a feasible route to go for my harness.

Les Maîtres d'Armes
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... above all, you should feel in your conscience that your quarrel is good and just. - Le Jeu de la Hache
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Oct, 2007 8:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter's site mentions horizontal plates, and the pics make them look like a little like the fauld on this one from Munich:



The horizontal plates on Peter's look like a segmented form of the hoops seen on the Munich cuirass to me.

Happy

ChadA

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James Barker




Location: Ashburn VA
Joined: 20 Apr 2005

Posts: 365

PostPosted: Fri 19 Oct, 2007 5:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
Peter's pretty likely to know what he's talking about, aside from his amazing talent as an armourer, he has a museum curiatorial background in armour as well.


His background aside we have to look at his interpretation and how he got there. I think his conclusion on the fauld is reasonable based on art and other extant pieces for Germany in the time frame of that harness but I would not have paired it up with an Italian suit or with the segmented breastplate as that is a one shot unusual piece of armor; a solid globose with it would be far more likely.

In his own words he wanted to do something different that looked cool and combined a German element with an Italian harness; that likely would not have happened in the early 15th century:

Quote:
The original armour is displayed with a shirt of mail, and most reproductions of the armour include a mail shirt, but I wanted to do something different, so I copied a style of separate fauld that I saw on several German effigies. The fauld is constructed like a coat-of-plates, with the horizontal bands riveted to the inside of a leather tunic worn under the breastplate. All together, these elements make for a striking armour.

James Barker
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Ivo Malz




Location: Hanau, Germany
Joined: 08 Jan 2005

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Fri 19 Oct, 2007 7:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello.

Transitional armour often had a globose breastplate sans backplate on top of other armour bits, and the segmented Churburg IMHO can be put into this general bracket.

Contemporary art often shows a skirt or just an apron of varying construction being worn with a single breastplate. These come in a variety of materials, sometimes made from maille, sometimes in brigandine construction (indicated by the rivet heads on the outside), sometimes composed of horizontal lames, sometimes even covered in scales like in the effigy of Kunz Haberkorn.

This style seems to have lasted way into the "Kastenbrust era" so roughly until around AD 1440- 50.

Ivo
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Jason G. Smith




Location: Quebec
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Oct, 2007 5:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Once again, thanks to the fine folks here - and thanks Allan for your service. You're good to me! Wink
Les Maîtres d'Armes
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... above all, you should feel in your conscience that your quarrel is good and just. - Le Jeu de la Hache
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Christoffer Lorang Dahl




Location: Oslo, Norway
Joined: 18 Jul 2007

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Tue 27 Nov, 2007 10:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am about to recieve a churburg #13 in febuary. I think it's the only churburg this side of Norway, so it will be a nice display of history. (But I do have to mention that a guy in my group is also making one, but that's another story)

The only worry I have, is that I cut my maille a bit to short, so that it ends right under the groin. That's why I am thinking about trying to make some type of skirt or faulds ( if that is the correct term.)

Did you guys conclude with this being possible, but to way off? I wont have a complete churburg after all, so that wont be a "problem". Didnt traveling and fighting around Europe make it possible to get different parts, different places?

Heavy metal!
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Christoffer Lorang Dahl




Location: Oslo, Norway
Joined: 18 Jul 2007

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007 5:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mini-bump.
That kind you should go to the doctor with.

Heavy metal!
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional



Location: upstate NY
Joined: 10 Nov 2005

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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007 6:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My personal belief about the CH 13 is that its construction wasn't unusual at all - what is unusual is that it's 'naked', and would have ordinarily have been cloth covered. It's a really nice quick and dirty way for one man to make a globose breastplate with a minimum of skill or fuss, hence its popularity with modern armourers. I don't think there is anything Italian about its construction at all, as the only place anything like it has been seen is in German art. I would go with a cloth covered fauld instead of leather, myself, though, as cloth would be far more usual.
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