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Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Disgustingly Dissapointed. Reply to topic
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John Wehr





Joined: 25 Apr 2007

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 5:03 pm    Post subject: Disgustingly Dissapointed.         Reply with quote

I lurked here for a while. I looked around to see who the good manufacturers were and I wanted to get something that would be a memorable first time sword. How I wish to take back that thought. I ordered a 1562 with custom 1415 hilt components (because Gus didn't have any of those blades ready) from Angus Trim. Those of you that have seen my prior posts know that it's been quite a while since I ordered (June 11th) I understand it taking a while to get the weapon finished and unseen circumstances and such. But I was patient. For as much as I paid for it, I expected a bit better service but I'm a forgiving person.

Imagine my joy when I found out that it'd be arriving today! On my day off no less, so I could get it immediately. I was quite anxiously waiting for it's arrival. Packaged in a very simply cardboard sleeve, I was a little nervous to the condition of something so dependent on balance and harmonics especially since I paid $30 for shipping, but I trusted my luck. Thankfully the sword is in magnificent condition. And what a sword it is. It's well balanced and handsome. The scabbard I purchased is quite lacking, as it's either too tight or far too loose at the neck, but that's neither here nor there. The main problem I have with it?

It's not the sword I ordered. It's a 1562, yes. And it's gorgeous. But I wanted (and paid) for a 1562 with the 1415 hilt. It essentially makes a 14th century looking sword into a late 15th century looking one. The 1562 has a bell shaped hilt and curved cross, the 1415 has a straight cross and a round hilt.

I'm so thoroughly disgusted that I'm either going to return it straight away and request a refund, or I'll just sell it outright and HOPE to get some of the money that I spent back. I'm very disappointed in the fact that "Gus" Trim is considered by many to be a premier swordmaker. From the look of the sword I can see that, but. I don't even want to finish this post. I'm SO disgusted.

I hope perhaps some people will gain some measure of pause after reading my story.

-John
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Jason Elrod




Location: Winchester, VA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Likes: 48 pages
Reading list: 38 books

Posts: 698

PostPosted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 5:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience with your fist sword.

Give yourself time to calm down and then give Gus a call or shoot him an e-mail. Unless he's changed the way he puts swords together, the hilt on your sword can be disassembled and the components switched out. Gus shouldn't have any problem making the change for you.

Good luck.
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Steve Sells
Industry Professional



Location: Fort Wayne indiana
Joined: 26 Jun 2007

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 5:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The experiance I have had with Gus, as another maker, is that he is an Honest person who wants his clients to be happy, call him as soon as you calm a bit. I am sure he will work it out with you.
Steve Sells
http://fenrisforge.com
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Neil Langley




Location: Stockport, UK
Joined: 23 Jan 2006

Posts: 112

PostPosted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 6:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So a mistake was made and things have not gone as planned. I can share you disappointment in this but, frankly, I think it is far to early in the day be anything more than ‘slightly miffed’ yet.

Why not contact Gus and give him a chance to put things right before complaining here? We all make mistakes and I believe we should all have chance to make thing right, that is what professionalism is about not making the odd cock-up in the first place.

For the record:

I have sword in the queue from Gus and it has been in the pipeline since March, but I am certainly not going to start moan about service just because it has not turned up yet – I pay Gus for the sword in his time - I never place orders against the clock unless it is part of the original spec. If anything is wrong when it arrives (not that I expect it will at all) I fully expect Gus will do his level best to correct the problem, and I will certainly give him every chance to do so.

I (almost) have an Albion that was ordered last November. The first sword was lost in the post and not recovered, the second was air mailed to Søren and then came to me. This one had a very slight bend and Albion arranged for a pickup and return to the US for mending. Since then some confusion over the model has resulted in a further delay.

Neither of these orders has gone quickly and the order Albion has had problems, however at no time have I felt the need to complain about the service either Albion or Atrim have given me, in fact Søren has been more than helpful in putting things right. I know that at some time in the future all will be well and I will have my swords. And, yes I will be quite happy to order more swords from them in the future.

Mistakes and delays can be sorted out, but these days we all seem too quick to complain first and solve the problem later, even if really this achieves little only building mountains out of mole hills. My advice to you is to remain calm and to give Gus chance to offer a solution before getting too upset over the problem with your sword.

Regards,

Neil.
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John Wehr





Joined: 25 Apr 2007

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 6:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Neil Langley wrote:
So a mistake was made and things have not gone as planned. I can share you disappointment in this but, frankly, I think it is far to early in the day be anything more than ‘slightly miffed’ yet.

Regards,

Neil.


Sorry to cut down your post. This would be a slight annoyance if it were the first problem that I've had with this purchase. As it is, it's not. Now I'm not marginalizing the fact that your swords were lost and/or bent visa vie Albion, but having a lost parcel or bent sword due to post is one thing. To order one swords and get an different one? Much much different. It's like ordering a blue car and the dealership showing up with a yellow one going. "here you are!" I'm sorry, maybe working in retail as I do has made me a little jaded when it comes to customer satisfaction and maybe I'm a little quick on being upset. But for me, the amount of time and money I've put into this? I'd expect someone at least to have a list of "Okay, this is exactly what this person wants.. double check it.. good to go!" That's the easy part!
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 6:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi John,
I can appreciate your displeasure. Gus certainly made a mistake. But having said that, remember that he's a one man shop, not a full production team. As Jason said, the hilt components are interchangable, so you should be able to contact him and swap them out to get exactly what you wanted. I'm not trying to say that you have no right to be upset, but the problem should be something that can be fixed easily. It'd be a completely different story if Gus refused to fix the problem.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Thu 04 Oct, 2007 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Disgustingly Dissapointed.         Reply with quote

John Wehr wrote:
Those of you that have seen my prior posts know that it's been quite a while since I ordered (June 11th) I understand it taking a while to get the weapon finished and unseen circumstances and such. But I was patient. For as much as I paid for it, I expected a bit better service but I'm a forgiving person.

-John


John,
Your initial words reflect some great qualities in yourself. Angus and Gus have alway been very good to customers that I have known, and myself (within contrary views on this forum's posts) as well. I waited almost 2 years for the last Albion sword (Munich) that I advance ordered, and there were no special features requested. The good news for you is that the mistake you have suffered is extremely easy to correct. Every experience and indication from those here who have done business with this vendor is that your problem will be graciously corrected if you simply contact the vendor and calmly request it.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Konstantin Tsvetkov




PostPosted: Fri 05 Oct, 2007 1:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello John,

If you will keep collecting swords you will soon find out that things like this happen surprisingly often. I would discuss the problem with Gus before bringing it to the public.

Konstantin.
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Jessen Klaus




Location: Denmark/ Fredericia
Joined: 27 Feb 2004

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Fri 05 Oct, 2007 1:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi John

I understand you are disappointed, but I dont think it is fair to make a public post like this before you have talked with Gus.
Some times these things happend, and after all it is not wallmart we are shopping at, we are ordering semi custom work and this take time and errors will happend.
Waiting time is sadly a part of our hobby.
I've been waiting for my Albion The Dane for about 2 years now.

Best regards
Klaus

Swords on waiting list
The Hauptmann,The Markgraf,
The Munich,The Knech,The Maximilian & The Dane

Sword's I'm selling/trading
Triton from Odinblades
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John Wehr





Joined: 25 Apr 2007

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Fri 05 Oct, 2007 5:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I must be in the minority to expect the level of customer service to rise to what one would expect from any normal small business. I don't like "airing" dirty laundry, nor do I do it on a whim. I posted this so that others who are first time (newbie) sword buyers might understand what they're getting into before investing in what is still a size-able amount of money for something.

Am I upset? You are darn right. Do I understand that delays might be part of the issue? Yes. And no I don't have some martyr like qualities that I'm perfect in every way as some previous poster had suggested. If this is a simple fix, fine. But in my experience there are no such things as "Simple fixes." I'm not exactly worried about the amount of time it has taken. I never was. What I'm more concerned about is that fact that it is incorrectly made.

This is not a slight on Gus as a person in any way.

Sincerely,

John
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Oct, 2007 6:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is no rule that the maker should be contacted first. While some (many?) people choose to do that because of the relationship they have with the maker, there's no hard and fast rule that it must be done.

I believe John has a right to be upset. He's chosen to air it here, which many may not agree with. However, that is his choice.

Was this a simple oversight on Gus's part? Probably. Does it mean every order will be delayed and messed up or that Gus is incompetent? Of course not.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz




Location: Michigan, USA
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 854

PostPosted: Fri 05 Oct, 2007 6:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll agree with Mr. Arnow and Mr. Wehr here. I'd be very certain Mr. Atrim will take care of the problem.
he's be around too long not to, I'd think. It's a tough show to air a bit of dirty laundry, believe me. For
every now-and-then problem there are usually numerous success-stories. I've worked 20 + years
in retail ( not a fair comparison maybe ) and this happens ...

But whether or not it is an easy fix -- to me -- isn't the issue. If you ordered # xxx you shouldn't recieve
# zzz, then have to be instructed on how to turn it into # xxx.

Good luck getting things righted, Mr. Wehr. B-)
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Clyde Hollis
Industry Professional



Location: Tennessee
Joined: 06 Jul 2006

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Fri 05 Oct, 2007 7:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I will have to agree to some point. Yes John had to wait and yes he expected to get what he ordered and I can understand him being upset.
We are also in the retail business and we do make mistakes from time to time and I understand when customers get upset. We try to make it as little as possible.

But in the few occasions this does happen I would hope our customer call us and explain so that we can make it right.

I know Angus Trim and I know he also would want to be contacted and the situation explained to him and I know he would want to make it right.

And I am confident that he will.

You want the sword you ordered and I am sure he wants you to have the sword you ordered.

Gus is a honest man, but even he too can make the human error.
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Ed Toton




Location: Northern VA
Joined: 16 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 462

PostPosted: Fri 05 Oct, 2007 7:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These things certainly happen. I used to run a small online sword retailing business, and once or twice I completely botched an order. The one that comes to mind was someone who had put in different shipping and billing addresses, and I sent it to the billing address out of habit. It really messed up his plans, unfortunately.

So I can understand that a non-standard order might on occasion be handled wrong. I'd be upset too, but it's really only a loss of time that you're probably facing in getting it resolved.

-Ed T. Toton III
ed.toton.org | ModernChivalry.org
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Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Fri 05 Oct, 2007 9:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am a dutchman living in the mountainous heartland of andalucia where red-tape has evolved into an artform. To perform this art takes time and obviously is subject to artistic liberties.
It took me longer to obtain a simple permit for a flintlock gun than it takes you guys to obtain steeled art and still I did not get the right papers at first either Laughing Out Loud

I guess the key issue here is that you are not buying mass produced clones from the shelve. You want individual pieces from a skilled craftsman who primairily is a swordsmith, not an order processing clerk.
No excuse there, but a reason and he will sort it out.

Congratulations to you all for the beautifull swords your patience has rewarded you.

I am not like that. I want to see, touch, buy, take home and play wih my toys. Consequence is that it is not anywhere near the same toy.

Every advantage has it´s own disadvantage and you have the nice Eek! ´toys ´

peter
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Gary A. Chelette




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 29 May 2007
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 337

PostPosted: Fri 05 Oct, 2007 9:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've had a rapier from MRL/Windless that I bought and had for two years untill I was at the Texas Renfest and slipped on some wet grass and landed on my sword hanging at my side. The blade bent and stayed bent. I was not pleased and fired off an email the next day to MRL.
The asked me to send it back, let me know it was one that did not get tempered and replaced the rapier with no problems.

Give Gus a chance and I think you'll be pleased with the results.

Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Lin Robinson




Location: NC
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Oct, 2007 10:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I appreciate the disappointment as I have had some in my life too. However, from John's first post, it seems that he had not contacted Angus about the problem. I think I would have done so and weighed the response from Angus before I launched a tirade of this type on a public forum. Give the maker a chance to correct what is obviously his error and, if he doesn't it is fine to let everyone know.

As Chad points out, there is no rule that requires this, but it would be the fair thing to do.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Harold R.





Joined: 02 Feb 2006

Posts: 76

PostPosted: Fri 05 Oct, 2007 1:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Guys,
I don't want to say anything bad against Angus or any other maker. What these guys do really is an art and I have the highest respect for it.

Having said that, I empathize with this guy's situation because I experienced it too.
Some of you may remember this thread that I started : http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=9918&highlight=

It is extremely frustrating and I don't blame him at all for being angry about it. I also don't blame him for wanting a refund. I am tired of people saying that you should just chalk stuff like this up to experience or keep cutting slack and give the guy a chance to "make it right".
A customer is what keeps the maker in business. Without people buying your product you either find another way to pay the bills or you don't eat. For the price that is paid for swords from talented makers it should be done right the first time. Customers already pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for swords and they do this so they can enjoy them. It should NOT be their job to do QC too.
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Edward Hitchens




Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Oct, 2007 3:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are always two sides to a story. I think it's only professional courtesy to hear what Gus has to say about it then go from there.

About five years ago, I called Albion and ordered a FirstGeneration Acre type XII. The "Crecy greteswerde" was accidentally sent to me instead. I called Mike and told him what a beautiful, awesome sword it was - albeit being the wrong one! But I wasn't the least bit upset. I thoroughly enjoyed my 2-week ownership of the FirstGen Crecy (which, BTW, I like better than the NextGen). But Mike arranged for UPS to pick it up and for the Acre to be sent to me. I had the Acre for a few years before I sold it (I miss it too!).

I think you'd be surprised at how easily mistakes like this can be corrected! Wink -Ted

"The whole art of government consists in the art of being honest." Thomas Jefferson
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John Wehr





Joined: 25 Apr 2007

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Fri 05 Oct, 2007 3:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lin Robinson wrote:
I appreciate the disappointment as I have had some in my life too. However, from John's first post, it seems that he had not contacted Angus about the problem. I think I would have done so and weighed the response from Angus before I launched a tirade of this type on a public forum. Give the maker a chance to correct what is obviously his error and, if he doesn't it is fine to let everyone know.

As Chad points out, there is no rule that requires this, but it would be the fair thing to do.


I emailed him first before I posted.
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