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Dan Kary
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 Posted: Fri 27 Feb, 2026 12:55 pm Post subject: Skean question |
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Hi everybody,
I'm sure many of us have seen Tod's awesome new skeans and videos about them (check them out if you haven't on the Tod's Workshop and Tod Cutler channels on YouTube!).
I have a question in virtue of learning that little bit more about them. Tod highlights the unusual construction of them. There is, however, at least one skean I know of that didn't have that same construction using wedges. It uses a more or less standard peen with a pommel or pommel cap. It also has a round, non-waisted grip. Tod, as some of us might remember, used to sell one (it is still available at kult of athena: https://www.kultofathena.com/product/tod-cutler-irish-scian-or-skean-medieval-dagger/) and there are others who sell, or sold, very similar ones.
Wulflund sells this: https://www.wulflund.com/weapons/swords/other-swords/irish-skean-xvi-century-battle-ready-replica.html/
An Irish arms one was featured here: https://myArmoury.com/nateb_dagg_ia_skean.html
Apparently this style is based on one from the river Shannon. I'm wondering if this was a weird one-off, or if it is an earlier, or later development (Wulflund says 16th century, which I think makes a contemporary of the wedge constructed ones). Any insights?
Thanks guys!
Dan
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Ryan S.
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| Posted: Sat 28 Feb, 2026 1:34 am Post subject: |
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I got the impression that Tod discontinued the old version of the scian because he wasn't satisfied with its accuracy, possibly after reading the book on it. The Rambling Kern did a short review on the book and said that most repos weren't that accurate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsSdf_reEuw
I think especially the wedges isn't something that is going to be apparent from art and information about scians is rare. Do you know any information about the Shannon river scian?
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Dan Kary
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| Posted: Sat 28 Feb, 2026 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Ryan.
I don't, but I was assuming that it was three makers all basing it on the same skean find. Otherwise, was it one of them just copying the others. I'm making that assumption just to be charitable I guess. I have, in the past, tried to find the original Shannon river skean and I was never able to find it - now I am hoping somebody can shed light on this. I suppose, however, until evidence is produced, skepticism is probably the rational course.
Thanks for the video link. I will for sure check that out. I should really follow the Rambling Kern. I've watched a few of his videos and I enjoyed them.
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Dan Kary
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Ryan S.
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Dan Kary
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| Posted: Sun 01 Mar, 2026 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the links!
I'm pretty convinced now that these older river Shannon skean reproductions are fantasy rather than being based on some atypical skean - as I assumed was the case. The question nagging me now is why? Even if somebody made this thing up on the spot and called it a skean, why would everybody just copy that instead of just copying some museum work? Is it because, until recently, there wasn't much available and the only thing people had to go off of was the original fantasy skean? (assuming that it is a fantasy piece - of course absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, but I think the time to believe something is when there is evidence...).
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Ryan S.
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| Posted: Yesterday at 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Kary wrote: | Thanks for the links!
I'm pretty convinced now that these older river Shannon skean reproductions are fantasy rather than being based on some atypical skean - as I assumed was the case. The question nagging me now is why? Even if somebody made this thing up on the spot and called it a skean, why would everybody just copy that instead of just copying some museum work? Is it because, until recently, there wasn't much available and the only thing people had to go off of was the original fantasy skean? (assuming that it is a fantasy piece - of course absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, but I think the time to believe something is when there is evidence...). |
One of the commenters on the YT video said Tod based his earlier reproduction on this picture:
 [url]
I don't think that picture is particularly accurate, but it is only one besides Image of Irelande that I could find showing the hilt. It is possible that it is from a composite of sources. I also think someone mixed up the dagger. Rynne, in his article about the Limmerick skean, includes drawings of three other skeans, one of which is missing a hilt and another one also recovered from the River Shannon near Athlone. The one missing the hilt (discovered in Ballycolliton) is the one that resembles the repos in my opinion. I found another article on them on JSTOR and both appear to be in the National Museum of Ireland, but I am having technical difficulties searching the collection on their site. The Ballycolliton skean appears to have a different form of hilt attachment.[/url]
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Dan Kary
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| Posted: Yesterday at 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the picture. Those shirts are neat and the Rambling Kern has some videos about them I have saved to check out later. The armored arm is really interesting, as is that sword scabbard. There's a lot of cool stuff in that picture!
Well the scabbard looks absolutely right and the guard looks good (if the picture is right). The blade, of course, is fine. But that handle and pommel doesn't even for the reproduction so yeah it might be a composite. That almost looks like a wheel pommel with a typical quillon dagger grip!
I think you might be onto something Ryan about it being a composite, but where's that grip and pommel? I wonder if it was the case that it's just an uncarved grip and the ring at the pommel end was interpreted as a pommel cap?
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Yesterday at 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Kary wrote: | | The question nagging me now is why? Even if somebody made this thing up on the spot and called it a skean, why would everybody just copy that instead of just copying some museum work? Is it because, until recently, there wasn't much available and the only thing people had to go off of was the original fantasy skean? (assuming that it is a fantasy piece - of course absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, but I think the time to believe something is when there is evidence...). |
Probably 90% of standard 'reproductions' are based on other reproductions and general-purpose Internet resources (not open-access journals, but occasionally museum catalogues). They just don't think or don't care to do anything more and their customers reward it. Just cracking a book and a free JSTOR account will put you ahead if you are competent at your trade. Handling and measuring originals puts you on the path to becoming A&A, Peter Johnsson, or James Elmslie.
The best way to know "will this sell?" is to know that another company already makes it and sells it. A lot of companies let someone else pay for the product development and just try to copy what they make for less.
I know of one case where a company in Asia copied a European copy of their previous product which was based on a model provided by an American who tracked down photos and scale drawings. This leads to the 'photocopy of a photocopy' effect where everything blurs.
If you've noticed, Tod has had to strip a lot of the source information off his new site, because most buyers are just confused by "based on Museum of London, object nn.nn"). I'm sure he is happy to geek out if you catch him at an event, but the purpose of his online store is to sell things.
weekly writing ~ material culture
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Today at 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Here is te MED entry which shows that large Irish knives were a known type in England from the 1390s. https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/middle-english-dictionary/dictionary/MED40636/
Never assume that any reproduction is a type of object that once existed. Even the best makers have to adapt things to modern materials and processes (eg. if the original blade had a 7 mm spine, and you are in Canada and use stock removal, you will probably make the reproduction in 1/4" and lose a bit of steel to the polishing). A better question is "what is this family of reproductions based on?" Good makers will tell you if you ask nicely.
It was kind of Tod to give us a whole video on how he designed his new skean and a pointer to a book with all seven surviving examples.
weekly writing ~ material culture
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Dan Kary
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| Posted: Today at 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Thanks guys.
| Sean Manning wrote: | | Never assume that any reproduction is a type of object that once existed...It was kind of Tod to give us a whole video on how he designed his new skean and a pointer to a book with all seven surviving examples. |
Yeah I suppose I assumed because it was one of Tod's and he seems to be pretty good about accuracy (as is the case with the new ones) in general and because there were other similar ones that said it was based on a find. I suppose unless I can see the find, I shouldn't assume they are telling the truth.
Sean also mentioned that "but the purpose of his online store is to sell things" and I think it's a shame that citing your sources doesn't sell things. I'm really kind of baffled at how historical accuracy still isn't more important to people. Like what got you into wanting a skean in the first place if you didn't like history? And if you like history, why don't you like historical accuracy?
It's like historical movies. Who is this for if not people into history and if you are into history, then why aren't you demanding more history in your history movies? I suppose it makes sense to somebody, but it doesn't make sense to me.
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Ryan S.
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| Posted: Today at 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Kary wrote: | Thanks for the picture. Those shirts are neat and the Rambling Kern has some videos about them I have saved to check out later. The armored arm is really interesting, as is that sword scabbard. There's a lot of cool stuff in that picture!
Well the scabbard looks absolutely right and the guard looks good (if the picture is right). The blade, of course, is fine. But that handle and pommel doesn't even for the reproduction so yeah it might be a composite. That almost looks like a wheel pommel with a typical quillon dagger grip!
I think you might be onto something Ryan about it being a composite, but where's that grip and pommel? I wonder if it was the case that it's just an uncarved grip and the ring at the pommel end was interpreted as a pommel cap? |
The picture is from Germany, I believe and is off in some ways. The shirts are too long and other depictions of the parrying gauntlet only cover the forearm. My guess is a European artist went of a description.
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This is a standard topic