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Tomas Z.
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 Posted: Thu 24 May, 2007 2:43 am Post subject: Gothic Breastplate Designs |
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Hello!
I'm thinking about getting a Gothic breastplate (late 15th century) and I would like to ask someone to make it for me. Does anyone know about where I could find some authentic designs on the internet so I can decide on the type (and also show the future maker precisely what I want)?
Thank you beforehand!
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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Brian Hook
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| Posted: Thu 24 May, 2007 6:31 am Post subject: |
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Few questions, by gothic you mean German gothic? What class of breast plate, one for say a foot soldier, a man at arms or say a well to do knight or noble? and by designs I take it you mean pictures of originals or from artwork pf the period if so I have a nice amount of them at my computer at home, will I post those when I get home from work, though I do have some on this computer.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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Tomas Z.
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| Posted: Thu 24 May, 2007 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Very nice photos! Thank you. I've looked at some and they are very helpful. I'll search through the rest later tonight.
[quote=Brian Hook]Few questions, by gothic you mean German gothic?[/quote]
Actually, I really only mean 15th century plates :-P
| Quote: | | What class of breast plate, one for say a foot soldier, a man at arms or say a well to do knight or noble? |
Well, I was thinking about being a man-at-arms. Not a noble but also not a poor peasant.
| Quote: | | and by designs I take it you mean pictures of originals or from artwork pf the period if so I have a nice amount of them at my computer at home, will I post those when I get home from work, though I do have some on this computer. |
My original idea was that I would find a design that I like and that is sufficiently documented (perhaps pictures from several different angles) and then ask someone to make me an exact copy. I understand that the best way to do it would be to visit a museum (thought I'm not sure if you are allowed to take photos) but right now I don't think I'll be able to do that. So I thought that maybe you guys will know where to look. 
Of course original artwork is still very welcome . I'm very new in all this so I'm still not able to recognize what is 'period' and what is 'fantasy'.
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Brian Hook
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| Posted: Thu 24 May, 2007 9:26 am Post subject: |
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Tomas, what are you planning to use the breast plate for? Living history, Wma training, just to look neat in the room? what are you looking to spend, as I said I will send you a lot more pics when I get home from work, but with those questions I can point you in the right place far as makers go.
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Tomas Z.
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| Posted: Thu 24 May, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Brian Hook wrote: | | Tomas, what are you planning to use the breast plate for? Living history, Wma training, just to look neat in the room? what are you looking to spend, as I said I will send you a lot more pics when I get home from work, but with those questions I can point you in the right place far as makers go. |
Hi Brian, I'm into battle re-enactment (which could to some extend be considered as Living History, right?), generally doing living history is also an option. Thanks!
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Thu 24 May, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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If I may, allow me to contribute a few as well, click on the thumbnails please:
  
  
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Tomas Z.
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| Posted: Thu 24 May, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Very beautiful stuff! Thank you for all the photos.
I actually have one more question. What kind of breastplate should I go for? Should I go for an authentic forged one? Is 150 pounds a good price for that?
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Brian Hook
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| Posted: Thu 24 May, 2007 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Tomas, I hate to break it to you, but 150 pounds is not nearly enough for authentically forged one, 150 pounds if your lucky will get you a blackened munitions one without complex gothic fluting (just breast not back) a full breast in back of a average quality will run you 800$ American (about 400 pounds) in mild steel, and in spring steel 1000+(and that’s on the low side I'd suggest 1500 American(750 pounds) for anything with a bit of detail, it seems like your new to living history, or battle re-enactment( Is your group tied to only the 15th century? do they have stick standards on rules for armour and clothing?) I'd suggest talking with the person in charge of your group before putting money into anything, it stinks to layout for armour and not being able to use it, you might also want to spend on a munitions quality armour which is suited for a lower classed soldier then a man-at-arms, and then save up to portray a Man-at-arms properly, rather then go for a cheap version of higher classed armour which isn't really suitable for anything, I can help you with this point you to a correct setup but I need to know a few things first like what nationality does your group portray. BTW if you could give me your email I can send you a large zipped file with a lot more pictures of harnesses.
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Thu 24 May, 2007 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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I would recommend looking for as much info as you can get if you really are wanting one that is accurate historically. Get pictures together, dates, dimensions, weights, etc. The more familiar you are with it the better off you are.
There are two problems that seem to take place in reenactment with metal thickness for example. The main issue stems from the fact medieval plate armour is not uniform thickness. The problem is that people take the thickest or thinnest point of a breastplate and make the entire reproduction of the one thickness, either heavier or lighter than the historic piece. No way to get around this unless you go for the thickness in the middle. Most places will not work the breastplate to make it vary in thickness and I can see why it requires alot more work.
Here are some historic weights of gothic torso protection.
German 1480 Breastplate with faulds and tassets- 2.764 kg/6.0808 lbs
Matching backplate with very low faulds- 3.664kg/ 8.0608 lbs
total- 6.428 kg. 14.1416 lbs (so about 15 pounds nearly)
Breastplate (black munitions looking one 1480)-no faulds or tassets- 2.066kg/ 4.5452 lbs
Backplate 1480 with back fauld- 2.678kg/ 5.8916 lbs
backplate w/out fauld- 1475-1480-2.478kg/ 5.4516 lbs
breastplate w/faulds 1480- 3.286kg/ 7.2292 lbs
backplate w/ faulds 2.426kg/ 5.3372 lbs
total- 5.712kg/ 12. 5664 lbs
As far as prices. You could look for some armourers in the eastern european countries who produce nice stuff for about 200-250 pounds for a breastplate like you are talking about. I think the prices get artifically inflated often with some armourers so look around. Some have a good name so tack on a few hundred pounds to anything. You in part are paying for the assurance it will be worry free though and their skill. You will likely pay alot more if you do heat treated of custom made and designed. It also is always better to see what the armourer is capable of doing by seeing past work in person if possible. Also the more detail, filework,designs, fluting the more expensive. There are many with few or less flutes that would work. I am not really into flutes that much but its a taste and cost thing you'll have to decide on.
I'd highly advice you to find out what others in your group have done, especially with metal thickness requirements if any. Some groups seem to wear really heavy stuff that is only borderline historic weights if at all but they require it for their functions. I'd much likely go heavier than middle weight than less if it were up to you . I have a grip about featherweight armour just as much as the ogre armour out there as well. I am sure in a historic context both existed though.
Hope that helps.
RPM
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Fri 25 May, 2007 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| Brian Hook wrote: | | Tomas, I hate to break it to you, but 150 pounds is not nearly enough for authentically forged one, 150 pounds if your lucky will get you a blackened munitions one without complex gothic fluting (just breast not back) a full breast in back of a average quality will run you 800$ American (about 400 pounds) in mild steel, and in spring steel 1000+(and that’s on the low side I'd suggest 1500 American(750 pounds) for anything with a bit of detail, it seems like your new to living history, or battle re-enactment( Is your group tied to only the 15th century? do they have stick standards on rules for armour and clothing?) I'd suggest talking with the person in charge of your group before putting money into anything, it stinks to layout for armour and not being able to use it, you might also want to spend on a munitions quality armour which is suited for a lower classed soldier then a man-at-arms, and then save up to portray a Man-at-arms properly, rather then go for a cheap version of higher classed armour which isn't really suitable for anything, I can help you with this point you to a correct setup but I need to know a few things first like what nationality does your group portray. BTW if you could give me your email I can send you a large zipped file with a lot more pictures of harnesses. |
Can I take you up on that offer as well please?
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Martin Forrester
Location: Huddersfield Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Fri 25 May, 2007 4:12 am Post subject: |
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me too please
martin.forrester@wescoair.com
From what I've seen, the best cheap breastplates in britain are the st george armouries budget model at £130. Any thing cheaper than that is dangerously thin. Don't know about the continent, I think postage would probably scupper anything you save on a large cheap item.
Oh, lets just pull out our swords and start whacking at each other, that'll solve everything!
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Brian Hook
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| Posted: Fri 25 May, 2007 6:45 am Post subject: |
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Only if Randell shares with me where you can get a quality 15th century German breast plate for 400-500 dollars  , just kidding all those who asked I will email with the pictures when I get home for work.
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 25 May, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There are two problems that seem to take place in reenactment with metal thickness for example. The main issue stems from the fact medieval plate armour is not uniform thickness. The problem is that people take the thickest or thinnest point of a breastplate and make the entire reproduction of the one thickness, either heavier or lighter than the historic piece. No way to get around this unless you go for the thickness in the middle. Most places will not work the breastplate to make it vary in thickness and I can see why it requires alot more work. |
The process of thinning ( using directed hammer stroking to push or pull metal to different points in a plate) is as Randal said HUGELY time consuming therefore( and would increase cost considerably as well) and that is one factor leading to uniform thickness in modern work, a second is that many fight organizations have minimum thickness requirements due to insurance/safety needs that call for a uniform minimum thickness and given the amount of armour purchased and used by these organizations taking these minimum uniform thickness requirements into account when building is pretty common.
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Fri 25 May, 2007 10:06 am Post subject: |
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Brian,
Do not know if you saw this before.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=10044
Some of their work is exceptional at the prices they are selling.
I met up with some gents from an armoury in the Czech Republic and the workmanship of their armour was nice. They appear at Barley hall in York a few times a year. I do not live up in that part of the country but Barley hall has a website that has times they visit. They had a very affordable gothic armour with nice fluting around 200 pounds. Not sure what shipping would be though but for those close to York worth the visit sometime.
http://website.lineone.net/~barleyhall/
Though I must warn you I never said high quality for 200-250 pounds but pieces that I'd consider what a men at arms would wear...
I am also interesting in them as well. I will be waiting 
Martin,
I have seen some of their work and thought it was pretty nice armour. I think their basic german styled breastplate does not have fluting is that the same one? Still a nice piece of armour.
RPM
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Brian Hook
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| Posted: Fri 25 May, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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Randall I saw that thread and some of those I already knew about, Getting out to York in my case to get a breast plate would be more costly though then just ordering one being that I'm in New York heh, I've talked to a few Armoires some in the US and some overseas (mostly in the CR), and the ones in the CR have some beautiful stuff for their prices which are in my opinion more then fair for what goes into them, a lot of us don't even flinch when shellout out for a sword but a 1000+ piece of armour seems to raddled nerves a bit, maybe cause a harness needs a lot of pieces eh? Any I've been saving my pennies and getting my harness piece by piece from Stanislav Prosek
of http://www.mac-armour.cz his pieces are amazing and his prices are to for the quality of his work, plus he works in spring steel as well! I personally want my harness done right the first time , I'm also order a munitions breast in mild from him to hold me over till I can afford the nice one, as promised the pics *pmed all who asked with the link everyone eles can grab it here*
http://www.zornhau.com/Orignal.rar This file is pretty much everything I've seen armour related and I've saved, I also have some I took at the Met myself but can't for the life of me seem to find those.. also a sneak preview of the sallet I'm having commissioned from Stan
*whoops changed link it was case sensetive*
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Fri 25 May, 2007 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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Brian,
Yes Stanislav is a great armourer and his work has become something I really like to see. The fact he will work in all sorts of materials and raise one piece helmets for a fair price and do heat treating is a nice blend. If I ever comissioned a suit- I'd go with low carbon steel for a 15th century harness but likely would skip heat treatment unless I was to use it alot for high impact events, jousting etc. I gave that up before I really started it so not to worry. Too much practice required and lack of time mostly due to my research and of course my main hobby of my family- 7 month old son keeps me on my toes! I would not have a problem putting up a few thousands for a full suit but once you start getting into the amount for a new car I start to wonder...
I look forward to seeing the helmet finished! Looks exceptional.
RPM
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Tomas Z.
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| Posted: Sat 26 May, 2007 3:40 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Tomas, I hate to break it to you, but 150 pounds is not nearly enough for authentically forged one, 150 pounds if your lucky will get you a blackened munitions one without complex gothic fluting (just breast not back) a full breast in back of a average quality will run you 800$ American (about 400 pounds) in mild steel, and in spring steel 1000+(and that’s on the low side I'd suggest 1500 American(750 pounds) for anything with a bit of detail |
Oh, sorry Brian. Maybe not forged. I actually don't know about all the various methods so I probably made a mistake. After doing a bit of asking around I started thinking about ordering it from Mac. He would make me a simple breastplate for that price. Of course there are probably others that are cheaper but Mac is supposedly really good so I'm thinking that I should rather spend more and have an assurance that it will last. What do you think?
| Quote: | | it seems like your new to living history, or battle re-enactment( Is your group tied to only the 15th century? |
Yes, I started only a few month ago. We have two groups which work closely together. One is a university society, and the other one is simply made mostly of university students. Anyways, the groups concentrates mainly on three periods - dark ages, high middle ages and late 15th century. I would say that the first and the last are the most important parts. As for me, I'm mainly into 15th century (though viking battles are really fun  )
| Quote: | | do they have stick standards on rules for armour and clothing?) I'd suggest talking with the person in charge of your group before putting money into anything, it stinks to layout for armour and not being able to use it, you might also want to spend on a munitions quality armour which is suited for a lower classed soldier then a man-at-arms, and then save up to portray a Man-at-arms properly, rather then go for a cheap version of higher classed armour which isn't really suitable for anything, I can help you with this point you to a correct setup but I need to know a few things first like what nationality does your group portray. |
Well, the groups is quite liberal so there are no strict rules etc. Of course people should probably wear stuff that will allow them to pass the event inspection but otherwise it's up to us. But since we are from 15th century England, English would type of armour and clothing would certainly be preferred (but of course if one is not from England but only serves under an English duke then he can easily ignore this unwritten rule). To be honest, I still haven't decided yet...but I guess I will portray an Englishman.
By the way, do you have any good pictures of what a 15th century (second half) man-at-arms looked like? I'm really not sure what was the standard clothing/armour for them at that time.
| Quote: | | BTW if you could give me your email I can send you a large zipped file with a lot more pictures of harnesses. |
tomaszuna@volny.cz ...thank you, you're very helpful
| Quote: | | I would recommend looking for as much info as you can get if you really are wanting one that is accurate historically. Get pictures together, dates, dimensions, weights, etc. The more familiar you are with it the better off you are. |
Randall I want to get historically accurate, but I guess I'm not going to go to the extremes so that everything has to be made in the authentic manner and cost a fortune.
| Quote: | | From what I've seen, the best cheap breastplates in britain are the st george armouries budget model at £130. Any thing cheaper than that is dangerously thin. Don't know about the continent, I think postage would probably scupper anything you save on a large cheap item. |
Martin, do you know what it looks like? Is it better than the ones from Mac?
This is the one I was thinking about getting from Mac (click on it):
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Tomas Z.
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| Posted: Sat 26 May, 2007 3:51 am Post subject: |
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Oh, and what do you think about using such pieces of armour in battle re-enactment? Is it safe? I mean, I don't want to destroy such an expensive item!
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