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Hugh Knight
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 Posted: Sat 24 Mar, 2007 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Steven H wrote: | | Elling Polden wrote: |
Shields on propper guiges are however showing great promise.
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So, I'm curious, what have you found to be proper guiges?
And what kind of shields are you using them with? |
This might answer both the OPs question and yours, Steven. In this picture:
http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/218.jpg
from Codex Wallerstein (part B) we see spears being used with small Ecranches. Other pictures in this series make me suspect these shields are being used with guiges and that the artist simply didn't draw them. Moreover, if you just put your hand through both the hand and forearm strap as we see here I can tell you from personal experience that the shield tends to roll over on your arm and become useless. Moreover, in this picture:
http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/Gladiatoria/8.jpg
from Gladiatoria we see an almost identical shield that's clearly hanging on a guige.
Not at all conclusive, I know, but a good start and I feel pretty comfortable with them.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Sun 25 Mar, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| Steven H wrote: | | Elling Polden wrote: |
Shields on propper guiges are however showing great promise.
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So, I'm curious, what have you found to be proper guiges?
And what kind of shields are you using them with?
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We are using largeish heaters and kites, typically 60x90-110 cm.
there are three criteria for guiges: Extended travel, accessibility and passive coverage.
Accessibility is the time you need to convert from two handed fighting to sword and shield; Passive coverage is the amount of coverage the shield gives you when just hanging in the guiges.
We have discovered two effective "passive coverage guige arrangements.
One features the rear attatchment quite high, typically next to the top of the rear handstrap, and the front attachment low on the front. This means that the shield "stands" in front of you. works well with kites. On the down side, the shield might "tip" when you are moving quicky, and you end up with a kite hanging horisontaly with the bacside out in front of you...
The other is to have the guige attached to the lower rivets of the handstraps, and simply pass the loop through the rear handstrapp.
The shield is them slung around the neck.The guige will place itself on either of the shoulder, so that the shield is practially hanging on the upper arm, and can be moved around. This looks a bit like the pictures of 14th cent fighters with small heaters on their shoulders, though my heater is larger. (and made of plywood, so it's presumably lighter than a "real" 13th c heater...) I've only started experimenting with this config the last month, so I'm not that clear on the pros and cons yet.
Both of these will let you use the shield actively to some extent with only the front handstrap in place. However, since the guige is tighter, a shield on "long guiges" with both handstraps in place are more efficient, and taking the guige of alltogheter is preferable if you have time.
Over all, the passive defence arrangements make the shield less effective when used actively, because the guige hinders some movements. However, its a large advantage to a spear or polearm fighter, as it gives you SOME defence.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Sun 25 Mar, 2007 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Hugh Knight wrote: | | Steven H wrote: | | Elling Polden wrote: |
Shields on propper guiges are however showing great promise.
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So, I'm curious, what have you found to be proper guiges?
And what kind of shields are you using them with? |
This might answer both the OPs question and yours, Steven. In this picture:
http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/218.jpg |
Yes, good guiges--and form the look of them, quite practical. They're most definitely not what I'd call "bucklers," though.
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Steven H
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| Posted: Sun 25 Mar, 2007 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for your reply Elling. However, I'm having trouble visualizing it. Do you happen to have any pictures of your company showing how the guiges work?
Thanks either way 
Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Tue 27 Mar, 2007 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| Steven H wrote: | Thank you for your reply Elling. However, I'm having trouble visualizing it. Do you happen to have any pictures of your company showing how the guiges work?
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Unfortunatley, I can't find any right now. Most of the pictures i've got are "in transit" with the shield on the back. I'll see what I can dig up, though.
It should be noted that there are a multitude of different arrangements in the sources, which would go to indicate that exactly how you have your guige and handstraps arranged is to a large degree up to personal taste
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Y. Kuipers
Location: Netherlands Joined: 08 Jan 2007
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Tue 01 May, 2007 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| Hugh Knight wrote: | While I agree that strapping a buckler to the arm is foolish and contrary to the purpose of a buckler, I thought you might find this picture somewhat interesting:
http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/Gladiatoria/113.jpg
This picture is from the Gladiatoria Fechtbuch, and I'm told it represents an Eastern European form of shield/buckler rarely seen west of the Rhine; possibly Hungarian in origin.
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Apologies for the off-topicness, but those Hungarian/Italian weapons strongly reminded me of Indian weapons I've seen earlyer. Basicly they look like swords with a fixed gauntlet. The grip seems to be a frontal grip just like that of a Katar (a.k.a. "punch dagger").
http://hindunet.org/saraswati/rajputs.jpg
http://hindunet.org/saraswati/pata2.jpg
http://hindunet.org/saraswati/shivaji.jpg
I really wonder what handling such a blade would feel like. It looks quite unusual.
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Reinier van Noort
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| Posted: Tue 01 May, 2007 3:22 am Post subject: |
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And Elding, since this topic is now resurrected anyway, I was wondering if you've perhaps had a chance yet to look for/take some pictures of the guiges as you are using them on your shield now ? I for one am very interested in seeing the exact setup as I am about to start working on strapping a heater for myself...
School voor Historische Schermkunsten
www.bruchius.com
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Wed 02 May, 2007 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| Reinier van Noort wrote: | | And Elding, since this topic is now resurrected anyway, I was wondering if you've perhaps had a chance yet to look for/take some pictures of the guiges as you are using them on your shield now ? I for one am very interested in seeing the exact setup as I am about to start working on strapping a heater for myself... |
Since I don't have my own camera or scanner, this has taken a while. Anyway, a drawing of the two configurations i've tried...
 Attachment: 58.72 KB
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Reinier van Noort
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| Posted: Wed 02 May, 2007 1:51 am Post subject: |
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Great, thanks.
Nice drawings too.
So, I'd guess that the guy on the left (with the sword) is the setup you are testing now. It looks somewhat uncomfortable.
Does this setup still work well/best or has your testing brought up problems with this setup too?
How long is the guige you are using?
Anyways, great stuff!
R
School voor Historische Schermkunsten
www.bruchius.com
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Merv Cannon
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| Posted: Wed 02 May, 2007 1:52 am Post subject: Bucklers |
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Tim, everyone..................Bucklers were also used offensively as well as defensively........at least during the Geman Fechtbuch period. You parry-punch away the blade, and sometimes even punch the opponent with the buckler if opportunity permits. So this type of combat wouldnt work with it strapped to the arm. I cant speak for earlier periods, but I believe that a buckler is more than just a small round shield which, Im sure, is what they started out as.
I found the pic of the east european shield which was used in tournaments "in the Hungarian style". If you search through the fechtbuchs you'll find various interresting sorts of offensive spiky bucklers It would be great to see a tourney reenacted in this "Hungarian style". If anyone has any more info on it, Id be very grateful to hear from you.
Cheers
Attachment: 41.51 KB
Merv ....... KOLR
http://www.lionrampant.com.au/
"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Wed 02 May, 2007 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| Reinier van Noort wrote: | Great, thanks.
Nice drawings too.
So, I'd guess that the guy on the left (with the sword) is the setup you are testing now. It looks somewhat uncomfortable.
Does this setup still work well/best or has your testing brought up problems with this setup too?
R |
The setup on the left still works best, but as you point out, you want to have a hood or collar when using it. The shield (at least mine) isn't really heavy, you just want something to keep the strap away from your skin.
I use two about 1m+ straps, that are tied to a fitting length. The design on the left was originally made to be carried on the back in a conventional manner, but I found out that passing the guige through the rear handstrap lets you use it efficiently in conjunction with a two handed weapon. Some original sheilds seem to have their guiges placed towards the middle/rear to gain a similar effect. (the front guige resting agianst your upper arm, so that the shield moves with your arm.)
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Romulus Stoica
Location: Hunedoara, Transylvania, Romania Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 124
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| Posted: Sun 06 May, 2007 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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For informations on strange bucklers and fighting with a dagger held in the same hand as the buckler (but buckler heln in hand not straped to the arm, page 119 recto ), look here: http://base.kb.dk/pls/hsk_web/hsk_vis.side?p_...p_lang=eng
This is one of the versions of the fighting manual written by Talhoffer in XV century. This fighting style was used in Hungary and Transylvania also, combined with italian influences.
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Mon 07 May, 2007 12:51 am Post subject: Re: Bucklers |
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| Merv Cannon wrote: | Tim, everyone..................Bucklers were also used offensively as well as defensively........at least during the Geman Fechtbuch period. You parry-punch away the blade, and sometimes even punch the opponent with the buckler if opportunity permits. So this type of combat wouldnt work with it strapped to the arm. I cant speak for earlier periods, but I believe that a buckler is more than just a small round shield which, Im sure, is what they started out as.
I found the pic of the east european shield which was used in tournaments "in the Hungarian style". If you search through the fechtbuchs you'll find various interresting sorts of offensive spiky bucklers It would be great to see a tourney reenacted in this "Hungarian style". If anyone has any more info on it, Id be very grateful to hear from you.
Cheers |
Hi,
If you look at the beginning of this thread you'll see that we discussed this plate already. The plate is fol. 55r from the Gladiatoria Fechtbuch that's in Krakow (there are several other variations, including one in Vienna). I have recently completed a translation of the entire Fechtbuch, and unfortunately, this is the only plate in the book relating to this kind of buckler. The text reads:
"This is a posture with the messer and also with the Hungarian buckler from which all techniques can derive in play and for serious."
I hope that helps.
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Tue 08 May, 2007 12:31 am Post subject: |
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Continuing the derailing of the thread, I finally managed to find a pic of the guiges in action...
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Tue 08 May, 2007 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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Still doesn't give a very clear picture of the guiges as such, though...
Going off-topic for a bit, I notice that the person in the center has his sword hanging on his right side with the hilt facing backwards, like the dao on the hips of the Chinese musketeers here: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=9807
Was that just an accident, or was it intentional and the sword could indeed be drawn comfortably from that position? Or is the issue moot because the sword is not meant to be drawn within the context of the depicted fight anyway?
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Wed 09 May, 2007 1:39 am Post subject: |
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the person in the centre, (beein me), does this on purpose. It should be noted that the weapon is more of an oversized dagger than a sword (ca 40 cm blade). The "propper" sword can be seen on the right hip.
The dagger is more front-right than right side. The purpose is to facilitate a smooth qucikdraw. Not only is the draw from front-right quicker, it is also less likely to be obstructed by enemies closing inn on you. If your shield or polearm is pushed back towards your body, reaching across for your sword might not be posible.
As far as I gather, katzbalgers where worn back or front right as well, as where roman gladii.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Wed 09 May, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Oh. Right. I overestimated the foreshortening in the picture. Now I see there'd be no problems with drawing something that short, though that means I'm still at a loss for answers about how a full-length sword might have been drawn from that position.
*sigh*
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