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Yevgeny Soshka
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 Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 6:03 am Post subject: Swords Edge |
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Hey guys I am sorta new but can anyone tell me the history of swords with toothed edge
I dont know what they are called and what they are used for and would like to know.....they look deadly
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Adam Simmonds
Location: Henley On Thames Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 169
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| Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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i'm not exactly sure what you'd call this either but it looks like it'd be good for slicing bread. 
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Swords Edge |
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| Yevgeny Soshka wrote: | Hey guys I am sorta new but can anyone tell me the history of swords with toothed edge
I dont know what they are called and what they are used for and would like to know.....they look deadly |
Where did you see said swords? To be honest I've never heard of such a thing. I learn something new every day though... 
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Yevgeny Soshka
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| Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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well that photo is not off the sword, I kinda want to know what is the history of swords that have toothed blade, they exist but what is its purpose (is to deal most damage or something else)
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Of all the antique swords (or images of swords) that I've seen, I don't recall any that had serrations like that ever. That style of blade I have only seen on utility knives and kitchen knives. Remember, a sword would not require the "sawing" motion that a bread knife would.
On the other hand, if you are referring to "wavy" bladed swords, you may want to look at this thread:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=629
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | Of all the antique swords (or images of swords) that I've seen, I don't recall any that had serrations like that ever. That style of blade I have only seen on utility knives and kitchen knives. Remember, a sword would not require the "sawing" motion that a bread knife would.
On the other hand, if you are referring to "wavy" bladed swords, you may want to look at this thread:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=629 |
Seconded in all respects. All I've ever seen are the wavy blades often called "flamberge."
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Some hunting swords can be found with serrated edges. |
Really? I'd never seen one. That's interesting. And I suppose it has a practical sense to it, as well, since modern hunters often carry large serrated knives to help with skinning.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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James Owen
Location: Australia Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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G'day
I have a picture in a book of a german cutlass with steel clam shells encasing the hand and a curved serated blade. I will post a pic when I find the book. It's the only antique sword blade I've ever seen with a serated blade.
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Lawrence Moran
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| Posted: Mon 05 Mar, 2007 10:40 pm Post subject: Serrations? |
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I wonder about Bill's comments: | Quote: | | And I suppose it has a practical sense to it, as well, since modern hunters often carry large serrated knives to help with skinning. |
While I feel like I am telling my grandmother how to suck eggs, I feel compelled to point out that there is an enormous difference between skinning knives and swords. Given the use for which a sword is intended and the restrictions imposed y its size, one must ask why would a sword be equipped with a serrated edge? Surely the smith and the end user did not intend to use the sword itself as a skinning tool...even if they intended it to be used in the hunt.
I confess to complete ignorance as to how one would use a sword in the hunt but several questions occur to me. Would one use it in a thrusting role or in a cutting role? I would think, based on my own limited hunting experience, that one would try to focus on the thrust rather than the cut. So, while a serrated edge might indeed open serious wounds would those wounds be quickly fatal? Imagine hunting a medieval era boar with a slashing sword...I would think that the sword would instead be used to deliver a killing thrust after the hounds and spearmen had brought the animal to bay and fixed it in place. Similarly, I would think the thrust would be the thing with any large game like elk or even bear.
The various Fechtucher show how weapons were used in combat. Are there sources available showing how they would have been employed in the hunt? Are there any showing serrated blades in this role?
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Lawrence Moran
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| Posted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 2:12 am Post subject: Hunting Swords |
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Hey Nathan, thanks for the link...I am new here and have not yet had the opportunity to read through all the older threads. The sword is actually quite nice. I noticed a few things about it though. It is rather utilitarian, wouldn't you agree? More like a tool than a weapon, if the distinction is not overly fine.
There are some serious differences between the sword in the OP and the one in the earlier thread as well. As some suggested, the saw back would be very useful in dismembering a carcass. The more conventional edge would be useful in making large cuts obviously. I am inclined to agree with those posters who suggest the hole in the tip of the blade would mostly likely have been used to facilitate sawing.
Still, there are fundamental differences between the saw toothed back edge of the earlier German sword and the serrated edge of the sword pictured here in this thread. Once again, I confess my almost total ignorance and would hardly be eager to challenge Bill Grandy on the topic of Western weapons...I just admit to some perplexity as to what purpose would be served by having a serrated front edge. I can see lots of problems with such a design and not much in the way of benefits that would make such problems acceptable.
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Jeff Pringle
Industry Professional
Location: Oakland, CA Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 6:10 am Post subject: |
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In Figiel's "On Damascus Steel" there is a 19th C. wootz shamshir blade with serrated edge in one of the photos illustrating highly spheroidized damascus, that's the only historical example of the bread knife edge I remember seeing.
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Yevgeny Soshka
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| Posted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Hunting Swords |
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| Lawrence Moran wrote: | Hey Nathan, thanks for the link...I am new here and have not yet had the opportunity to read through all the older threads. The sword is actually quite nice. I noticed a few things about it though. It is rather utilitarian, wouldn't you agree? More like a tool than a weapon, if the distinction is not overly fine.
There are some serious differences between the sword in the OP and the one in the earlier thread as well. As some suggested, the saw back would be very useful in dismembering a carcass. The more conventional edge would be useful in making large cuts obviously. I am inclined to agree with those posters who suggest the hole in the tip of the blade would mostly likely have been used to facilitate sawing.
Still, there are fundamental differences between the saw toothed back edge of the earlier German sword and the serrated edge of the sword pictured here in this thread. Once again, I confess my almost total ignorance and would hardly be eager to challenge Bill Grandy on the topic of Western weapons...I just admit to some perplexity as to what purpose would be served by having a serrated front edge. I can see lots of problems with such a design and not much in the way of benefits that would make such problems acceptable. |
I think the reason it has an edge like that is because it would have been used to cut down trees (small ones).....makes sense for it to be a saw
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 8:28 am Post subject: Re: Serrations? |
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| Lawrence Moran wrote: | I wonder about Bill's comments: | Quote: | | And I suppose it has a practical sense to it, as well, since modern hunters often carry large serrated knives to help with skinning. |
While I feel like I am telling my grandmother how to suck eggs, I feel compelled to point out that there is an enormous difference between skinning knives and swords. |
I'll have to admit, I don't know jack about skinning an animal, or hunting for that matter, and was definatley speaking speculatively. Do hunters need to remove things such as the legs of large game to make them easier to transport? I had assumed this, but I don't actually know. If this is true, that was where serrations could come in handy.
As for how a sword would be used for hunting, most were not the main hunting weapon. A boar, for instance, would be wounded with a large spear, and while it were wounded, a sword could have been used to finish it off.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Tue 06 Mar, 2007 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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You don't skin large animals with a serrated blade. You use a short, curved, broad-bladed, very sharp skinning knife. For butchering you will need bone saws. For field dressing a blade with a gut hook is nice, but not necessary.
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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This is a standard topic
