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Justin Pasternak
Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 174
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 Posted: Tue 09 Jan, 2007 1:30 pm Post subject: Unique Hand (Fist ) Weapons |
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I'm curious if anyone knows about any hand (fist) weapons or have any images of the hand (fist) weapons that are worn over the finger, over the knuckles, or over the wrist.
The examples that I have found are in several of my books and these weapons come from central and northern Africa, India, and Japan.
The hand weapons from central and northern africa are the fighting bracelet called a "nyepel" from southern sudan, Africa and the finger knife from northeastern. These can be found on pg. 281 of the book called "Weapon: a visual history of arms and armor."
The hand weapons from india that I found are called the bagh nah (tiger claw) and the korimba, which is a small finger knife with a curved blade. some other unusual fist weapons are the fighting armlets of assam (eastern india) and a few different varieties from northern Africa all the way to eastern India. Which can be found in book called "Geroge Cameron Stones: Arms and Armor" which are found at figures 28, 59, and 461. These can also be found under the cateogory of "Armlet" and Knuckle-Duster" in the book for more details on the weapons.
And last but not least there are two examples of hand weapons from japan which are the "Hokode" (hand claws) that are sharp pointed instruments that are slid over each of the fingers and thumb, the other hand weapon is called the Tekagi (claw) that is worn over the hand in a similar way to the "bagn nah". Both these hand weapons are meant in the aid of climbing/scaling walls as well as a self-defense weapon of last resorts. The weapons were usually carried by ninja or assassins. The weapons can be found in the book called "Ninja: 1460-1650 A.D." by Osprey Publishing on page 61 and on Diagram B.
Does anyone know of any other unusual or unique Hand (Fist) Weapons that were or are still used in any part of the world?
Last edited by Justin Pasternak on Tue 09 Jan, 2007 7:41 pm; edited 8 times in total
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Hugh Fuller
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| Posted: Tue 09 Jan, 2007 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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There is an Indian weapon that is a stout blade affixed to a grip in such fashion that it works as a punching weapon. I cannot remember the name, unfortunately. But I am sure that others will. There were also a number of brass knucle style trench knives that came out of the trench warfare on the Western Front in WWI.
Edited to add that I think that the name of the Indian weapon is the katar.
Hugh
Still trying to walk in the Light
Please see 1 John 1:5
Last edited by Hugh Fuller on Tue 09 Jan, 2007 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Tue 09 Jan, 2007 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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Hello all!
Hi Justin!
Since you already used the primary sources I would have used to find information about these things (which is as it should be - keep getting more books!), I decided to check out the net. I don't know if you already found any of this as well, but just in case it's new to you or others, here we go!
This is what I found when I googled nyepel (the picture appears below):
| Rachel Sparks of the Pitt Rivers Museum, the Southern Sudan Project wrote: |
Accession Number:
1979.20.136 .1 .2
Country:
Sudan
Region:
[Southern Sudan] Eastern Equatoria
Cultural Group:
Larim
Date Made:
By 1979
Materials:
Iron Metal , Animal Hide Skin , Aluminium Metal , Plant Fibre
Process:
Forged (Metal) , Hammered , Incised
Dimensions:
L = 139.5 mm, W = 91.7 mm, th blade 1 mm [RTS 5/3/2004]
Weight:
68 g
Local Name:
nyepel
Other Owners:
Purchased by Patti Langton for £2, probably between 20th and 25th March 1979, as part of the British Institute in East Africa's expedition to the southern Sudan [RTS 1/6/2004].
Field Collector:
Patti Langton
PRM Source:
Patti Langton
Acquired:
Purchased 1979
Collected Date:
20 - 25 March 1979
Description:
Wrist knife consisting of a blade made from a thin sheet of iron, hammered flat. This has a sharp outer cutting edge, which is curved at one end, the sides then becoming straight and and extending into two arms with slightly rounded tips. The inside edges of these arms are straight, but taper out slightly towards their bases, where each has a short spur. Below this is the curved inner edge of the weapon, which has been cut in an oval shape to fit around the wrist. A series of small notches have been cut into the inner edges of each arm at top and bottom, to form a slightly serrated blade; the central part has been left plain. Each arm has been decorated at its base on both upper and lower surfaces with an x-shaped cross made of two intersecting incised lines; one of these has been poorly executed and it looks as though the tool may have slipped leaving an extra line across the spur at that point.
The knife is fitted with two sheath parts; the inner sheath, which has not been individually numbered, fits around the inside edge of the weapon to protect the wrist. This is made from a piece of light orange brown hide (Pantone 1395C) that has been bent over the metal edge, and then held in place across the open end between the spurs with an aluminium 'clip' made from sheet metal that has been formed into a half cylinder, with a projecting flange at either end. The long, open ends of this half cylinder have been only roughly finished and there are still tool marks visible on its surface. Around the inside edge of this sheath on two thirds of its length is a plaited length of what may be vegetable fibre. The sheath is currently quite loose fitting, and this fibre may have been added to improve the fit. The sheath was not removed from the object and so could not be studied in closer detail. A second sheath, numbered 1979.20.136.2, has been fitted around the outside edge of the blade and unlike the inner sheath, would have been removed before engaging the opponent. This has been made in a similar manner to the inner sheath, but from a longer piece of hide, that has been bent over the sharp edge. This extends beyond the pointed arm tips by 7 and 15 mm respectively. These ends have been secured by short aluminium 'clips', made from sheet metal bent into cylinders with a flat ended flange at one end, and a simple flat edge at the other. These cylinders have an open seam along the length on one side. Hammering marks are visible on their surfaces. The sheath was not fully removed for study, but no plaited fibre was visible on the part that was removed.
Complete and intact; there is no obvious signs of poison on the blade. The iron is in good condition, currently a silvery gray colour (Pantone 423C); the aluminium is a lighter silver colour, that could not be matched to the Pantone chart. Length (including sheath) 139.5 mm, width (including sheath) 91.7 mm; thickness of body 1 mm; thickness of outer sheath 6.3 mm; diameter of small aluminium sheath clips at flange 11.7 mm; diameter of large aluminium inner sheath clip body 9.1 mm; Length across inside edge of inner sheath 49 mm, width across inside edge of inner sheath 34.3 mm; approximate weight (with sheaths) is 68 grams.
Purchased by Patti Langton from the Larim for £2, probably between 20th and 25th March 1979, as part of the British Institute in East Africa's expedition to the southern Sudan. No specific place of collection was recorded, and John Mack has commented that the form of this type of object does not seem to vary between different Larim clan areas. It was used as a fighting knife by men, and has the local name nyepel. Similar wrist knives and sheaths are found amongst a number of other groups, including the Acholi, Turkana, Bari and Murle; their use spread to other groups such as the Toposa and Didinga slightly later than the rest (C. Spring 1993, African Arms and Armour, p. 115-6). Mack has also mentioned their use by the Jiye and Latuka.
Rachael Sparks 8/9/2005. |
Here's the information (second picture below) of an antique bagh nakh that was once for sale on the Therion Arms web site:
| Therion Arms wrote: |
ring-to-ring width: 4 3/8"
claw length: 2 1/8"
weight: 4.5 oz
Indian tiger claw bagh-nakh, 1800's or 1900's. Very unusual example with pattern welded steel. I've sent copies of the pictures off to my damascus expert buddy, we'll see if he declares this true damascus patterning or some other form of pattern welding. (Here's a great trick he taught me for bringing out the etching on pieces that are possibly damascus - let it soak in cola for about half an hour. That etches away just a tiny bit of the metal's skin and age-accumulated gunk, exposing the patterning. Makes me want to stop drinking soda, that's for sure, but I can't imagine eating pizza without drinking cola.)
Here's your fighting lesson for today - the use of bagh-nakh. The weapon is held projecting from the palm of the hand with the thumb and pinky through the rings, as in the second to last picture. The strike is an open slap, ripping and tearing unarmored (and mostly unclothed) skin. Someone in this bagh-nahk's history decided that the true method must be projecting from the back of the fist for a Wolverine style slash and bent the weapon accordingly, but they were wrong. This one needs to be straightened, but because of the extreme rarity and since it's presented here at TherionArms as a comission piece for sale for a friend, I'm loathe to mess with the configuration, no matter how inaccurate. |
Here's the link to Therion's page about the bagh nakh, with more pictures:
http://therionarms.com/sold/com005.html
I found a few images of modern tekagi (which I won't post right now), and no images of any of the other weapons you mentioned.
There could be many different names for similar weapons worldwide; I think the information you got from Stone and the other resources gives a good general idea of what sorts of "fist" weapons are out there.
Stay safe!
 Attachment: 28.87 KB
Larim wrist knife, Pitt Rivers Museum.
Attachment: 46.51 KB
Bagh nakh from Therion Arms.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Tue 09 Jan, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Hello again!
Hugh's right, the Indian "push-dagger" is called the katar.
There was also an American version of this concept (much smaller) in the "push dagger" briefly popular in the 19th century. Here's a link to the thread about these small daggers:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=8839
The blade protruded from between the fingers, so they might count as "fist" weapons.
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Justin Pasternak
Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Tue 09 Jan, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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I got a question about brass knuckles. If the brass knuckles do not fit over your knuckles perfectly (if they are not custom fit), could you break all of your knuckles when you throw a punch at or strike someone?
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Wed 10 Jan, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Pasternak wrote: | | I got a question about brass knuckles. If the brass knuckles do not fit over your knuckles perfectly (if they are not custom fit), could you break all of your knuckles when you throw a punch at or strike someone? |
Justin,
I have no practical experience in using brass knuckles, but I imagine that you could break your knuckles just as easily with perfectly-fitting brass knuckles as you could with poor-fitting ones. They aren't really wide enough to spread much of the force of the blow, so the force will probably be fairly well transmitted through the brass knuckles into your hand. I believe they function more as adding hardness and weight to the fist, rather than protecting the fingers.
Gauntlets work to protect the hand because the plates (with more often than not overlap) serve to spread the force of the blow over a wider area, protecting the hand beneath. boxing gloves work by padding the hand and "absorbing" the force (the force is made to "slow down" - similar to how an air bag operates). I can't see brass knuckles, well-fit or not, giving much of either of these advantages.
Let me put it this way; if you go punching a hard object with a pair of brass knuckles, expect to do damage to your hand!
I hope my specualtion was helpful!
Stay safe (and don't go breaking any finger bones)!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Hugh Fuller
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| Posted: Wed 10 Jan, 2007 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Unless you consider a jaw as a "hard object," I rather doubt that brass knickles are intended for puching into hard objects. They are intended as a VERY up close and personal anti-personnel weapon. Personally, I should think that a roll of coins or other form of small hand weight would be a better choice. Or, you might look into the ancient Roman and Greek boxing glove, the cestus, which was a series of straps that bound the pugilists' hands. These were reinforced with bronze plates and spikes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cestus
Hugh
Still trying to walk in the Light
Please see 1 John 1:5
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Wed 10 Jan, 2007 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Hugh Fuller wrote: | | Unless you consider a jaw as a "hard object," I rather doubt that brass knickles are intended for puching into hard objects. |
I've known some very hard-jawed people in my time!  
What if the guy you were trying to punch with the brass knuckles ducked or otherwise got out of the way, and you hit the wall or other nearby object instead? Ouch! (Unless, of course, your comrades-in-crime held the guy down - but where's the sport in that? Of course, brass knuckles are not honourable weapons!)
Seriously, I would much rather have a gauntlet with gadlings. It's sort of an extension of the cestus concept. Hand protection and offensive capabilities!
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Einar Drønnesund
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| Posted: Wed 10 Jan, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard Fay wrote: | | Justin Pasternak wrote: | | I got a question about brass knuckles. If the brass knuckles do not fit over your knuckles perfectly (if they are not custom fit), could you break all of your knuckles when you throw a punch at or strike someone? |
Justin,
I have no practical experience in using brass knuckles, but I imagine that you could break your knuckles just as easily with perfectly-fitting brass knuckles as you could with poor-fitting ones. They aren't really wide enough to spread much of the force of the blow, so the force will probably be fairly well transmitted through the brass knuckles into your hand. I believe they function more as adding hardness and weight to the fist, rather than protecting the fingers.
Gauntlets work to protect the hand because the plates (with more often than not overlap) serve to spread the force of the blow over a wider area, protecting the hand beneath. boxing gloves work by padding the hand and "absorbing" the force (the force is made to "slow down" - similar to how an air bag operates). I can't see brass knuckles, well-fit or not, giving much of either of these advantages.
Let me put it this way; if you go punching a hard object with a pair of brass knuckles, expect to do damage to your hand!
I hope my specualtion was helpful!
Stay safe (and don't go breaking any finger bones)! |
Re: brass knuckles.
I have a friend who has a pair of them, similar to this:
The thing protruding behind the rings rests into the palm of your hand, and thats where all the impact is going. And they are so big, your knuckles are not near whatever it is you are punching. I'd quite happily punch a brick wall with my friends brass knuckles. If you hit someone in the face with them, I shudder to think of the results. Easily a broken jaw or crushed teeth. You'd be much more likely to break your hand on someones head with a bare fist.
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Wed 10 Jan, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Hello all!
Einar's friend's brass knuckles look usable. The design sounds fairly practical, as far as those things go.
I still prefer gauntlets with gadlings! Of course, then you need the armour to go with it. And a sword. And a horse, and...
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Justin Pasternak
Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Wed 10 Jan, 2007 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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All the reply's to my question sound very interesting, indeed. I wish I could try out a pair of brass knuckles on a hard object or target, but their illegal in Massachusetts.
But are their any other forms of fist weapons or sources (websites) of any other fist weapons that have not already been discussed or shown in the topic already?
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Martin Forrester
Location: Huddersfield Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Thu 11 Jan, 2007 4:49 am Post subject: ebay tat |
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You get a lot of these horrible products on ebay, I would be interested to know if they were based on an authentic chinese assassin's weapon.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Practicably-Collectable...dZViewItem
Would you count a small medieval buckler as a 'fist weapon'? It transmits the force of the punch to he palm of the hand like the dusters above.
Oh, lets just pull out our swords and start whacking at each other, that'll solve everything!
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Thu 11 Jan, 2007 5:24 am Post subject: |
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I'm surprised no has posted a picture of a katar yet.
Here are some (mostly from t'internet, my apologies to anyone who recognises one of their pictures, I'm extremely grateful):
   
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Thu 11 Jan, 2007 11:38 am Post subject: Re: ebay tat |
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| Martin Forrester wrote: | | Would you count a small medieval buckler as a 'fist weapon'? It transmits the force of the punch to he palm of the hand like the dusters above. |
I would, especially a spiked buckler. Maybe I'll look for some interesting buckler images later.
Stay safe!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Justin Pasternak
Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Thu 11 Jan, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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Those chinese assassin claws look cool, they remind me of Freddy Kruger's clawed glove in those movies. And I thought that the katar was classified as a type of dagger and not a fist weapon?
But, still these are some very interesting topics!!!
I found another type of knife/fist weapon combination from India called the Bich'hwa and a Madu which is a type of Indian Parrying Weapon:
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Thu 11 Jan, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hello all!
Since bucklers were mentioned, I thought I would include an image of bucklers that could definitely be used as offensive weapons. I found an image of bucklers with spiked bosses from the Manesse Codex. It may be a bit outside the topic of fist weapons, but as a comparison, I also included an image of larger round shields with possible "spiked" bosses. I think in either case the bosses could be used to inflict injury, beyond a "punch" to the face. (I know bucklers can be used as offensive weapons regardless - but these spiked bucklers seem to emphasize that function.)
Here's the information regarding the images:
| Universitätsbibliothek Heidelberg wrote: |
Cod. Pal. germ. 848
Große Heidelberger Liederhandschrift (Codex Manesse)
Zürich 1305 bis 1340 Weitere Informationen:
Alle digitalisierten Handschriften
Seitenbeschreibung
Kapitel: 204r: Von Scharpfenberg Blatt: 204r |
| British Library wrote: |
Record Number: 007316
Shelfmark: Cotton Cleopatra C. VIII
Page Folio Number: f.18v
Description: [Upper miniature] Luxuria is drawn towards the sound of fighting; the scene illustrating lines 316-325 of the 'Psychomachia'
Title of Work: Psychomachia
Author: Prudentius
Illustrator: -
Production: England [Christ Church, Canterbury]; late 10th century
Language/Script: Latin / - |
Enjoy!
Attachment: 48.01 KB
© 2004 Universitätsbibliothek Heidelberg
Attachment: 21.97 KB
© British Library
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Justin Pasternak
Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Thu 11 Jan, 2007 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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Richard, those are some cool looking spiked bucklers, I sure wouldn't want to get struck in the face by one of those!!!
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Thomas Jason
Location: New Joisey Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 230
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Justin Pasternak
Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Fri 09 Feb, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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I've found a few more unique hand weapons of japanese origin.
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Justin Pasternak
Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Fri 09 Feb, 2007 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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I even found some spiked ring weapons used in some japanese martial arts
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