Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search


Please help our efforts with a donation. This site requires ongoing funding and your donations are crucial to our future.
Last 10 Donors: Neil Eddiford, Chad Arnow, Jean Thibodeau, Robert Morgan, Adam Rose, Jerry Otahal, Michael P. Smith, Mikko Kuusirati, Eric Bergeron, Daniel Staberg (View All Donors)

Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Ancient Weapons in SE Asia Reply to topic
This is a Spotlight Topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
John Piscopo




Location: LaGrange, IL 60525 SW of Chicago
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan, 2004 11:09 am    Post subject: Ancient Weapons in SE Asia         Reply with quote

Dear Andrew & Friends,

Few in the west are aware of the civilizations and cultures of SE Asia that may be considered ancient.

In China there are many minority cultures contemporary with the recognized Chinese eras of the Shang, Zhou, Warring States, Chin and Han Dynasties. The most artistically renowned ones are in the Southern provinces of Sichuan and Yunnan Provinces, the Qiang, Ba, Shu and Dian Cultures which influenced the Vietnamese Dong Son Culture.

I have ancient swords and other weapons from all of these areas and I own a website for the discussion of Dong Son at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Dong_Son/ If you go to the Photos archive you will see pictures of my collection, including a sword from the later Champa culture of Central Vietnam. Please join and follow the occasional discussions if you are interested in this area.

Ancient Thailand had a complex Bronze Age Civilization that arose independently from all other areas, generally called the Ban Chiang area of Northwest Thailand. Please go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ancient_Thailand/?yguid=30974666 I have included photos of Khmer items from Cambodia as well although these items are of a much later era.

All the photos are duplicated at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientweapons on which I have posted all of the photos from the above groups as will as many Near Eastern weapons.

The Sword Forum International format is similar to the one used on myArmoury, it has the advantage of combining text and pictures for a coherent discussion and has an Ancient Weapons Forum for those interested in this field
http://forums.swordforum.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=12

You will note from my postings that I believe in research to confirm weapons identifications with my own references, I have found over the years that dealers in swords and other weapons should not be trusted in the descriptions given, I have made some tremendous buys of very rare items on eBay because the sellers had no idea of what they were selling, using the faulty descriptions given to them by their suppliers. Many items are identified as Roman that are really Iron Age Celtic LaTene items which are much more common because such a description will lead to higher auction prices. Cheap Chinese repros and fantasies are often offered for sale that are worth less than $10. as Near East and European Bronze Age weapons, if you are interested in such repros, search Swords on eBay and click the Lowest Price option. You will see literally thousands of them.

I should point out that many ancient and antique swords and other weapons can be purchased for prices cheaper than some modern repros and fantasies. If you are interested in repros of historical swords, I would suggest a search first to discover what genuine ones of the style you are looking for are available before making a decision. You might decide to purchase the genuine sword rather than the repro.

I collect swords and bayonets dated WWI back to the Bronze Age from the US and Europe and ancient swords and other weapons from Eurasia. I participate in many historical forums for the study of ancient history and weapons. I am happy to share what expertise I have. John Piscopo
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Andrew Winston




Location: Florida, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2003

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan, 2004 9:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you, John. Interesting information. Any chance you'd be willing to post some photos here? I can't view the Yahoo pix, as I'd have to join. Additionally, I've found it much easier and valuable to have the item being discussed posted in the thread.

Do any of your Dong Son swords look like this?

"I gave 'em a sword. And they stuck it in, and they twisted it with relish.
And I guess if I had been in their position, I'd have done the same thing."
-Richard Milhous Nixon
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
John Piscopo




Location: LaGrange, IL 60525 SW of Chicago
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb, 2004 2:44 pm    Post subject: SE Asian Weapons         Reply with quote

Do any of your Dong Son swords look like this?


Dear Andrew,

No, everything I have seen from the Dong Son and Dian areas has been made of bronze, your sword looks more like a Dha which may belong to the Khmer, Thai or Burmese areas. The hilt looks like polished brass with an iron blade, that would lead me to discount Khmer. I would suggest that it would date to the 17th C. or later.

The brass hilt would have been cast onto the iron blade.

I will consider posting some pictures, a Champa sword dating to 1000 AD +/- 200 is posted below. The Champa Kingdom ruled central Vietnam, the region commonly known as Annam. Here is a website that will tell you more about this kingdom: http://www.limsi.fr/Recherche/CIG/echampa.htm If you get interested and want to learn more, go to:
http://www.namviet.net/travel/attractions/champa.html

I only have one bronze sword that is Dong Son, several Khmer swords. Beware, I purchased a supposed Thai Sukothai sword that turned out to be a British Enfield bayonet with a cast on bronze hilt and left to rust. If you are interested in purchasing ancient weapons from the Dong Son area, the Red River Valley from Haiphong to Yunnan in China, I would recommend that you contact Mikkel Pedersen in Copenhagen Denmark. He has one listing for a Dong Son weapon on eBay now: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem...3701163379 I have several smaller dagger size pieces in this style.

Why do you object to signing up for the Yahoo Groups? All you have to do is complete a profile and you can join good historical groups that interest you. I own Dong Son, Thailand, Kushan and Chinese Archaeology Groups and moderate Ancient Weapons and coin (AFST) groups and I am a member of dozens of others. Try joining my http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientweapons and take a look at the Photo archives. I have posted hundreds of pictures of my collection.



 Attachment: 4.32 KB
Champa 1.jpg


I collect swords and bayonets dated WWI back to the Bronze Age from the US and Europe and ancient swords and other weapons from Eurasia. I participate in many historical forums for the study of ancient history and weapons. I am happy to share what expertise I have. John Piscopo
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John Piscopo




Location: LaGrange, IL 60525 SW of Chicago
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb, 2004 2:46 pm    Post subject: Champa Sword         Reply with quote

Detail


 Attachment: 8.38 KB
Champa 2.jpg


I collect swords and bayonets dated WWI back to the Bronze Age from the US and Europe and ancient swords and other weapons from Eurasia. I participate in many historical forums for the study of ancient history and weapons. I am happy to share what expertise I have. John Piscopo
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John Piscopo




Location: LaGrange, IL 60525 SW of Chicago
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb, 2004 2:48 pm    Post subject: Champa Sword         Reply with quote

Detail


 Attachment: 7.88 KB
Champa 3.jpg


I collect swords and bayonets dated WWI back to the Bronze Age from the US and Europe and ancient swords and other weapons from Eurasia. I participate in many historical forums for the study of ancient history and weapons. I am happy to share what expertise I have. John Piscopo
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John Piscopo




Location: LaGrange, IL 60525 SW of Chicago
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb, 2004 2:50 pm    Post subject: Champa Sword         Reply with quote

Detail


 Attachment: 7.6 KB
Champa 4.jpg


I collect swords and bayonets dated WWI back to the Bronze Age from the US and Europe and ancient swords and other weapons from Eurasia. I participate in many historical forums for the study of ancient history and weapons. I am happy to share what expertise I have. John Piscopo
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John Piscopo




Location: LaGrange, IL 60525 SW of Chicago
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb, 2004 2:51 pm    Post subject: Champa Sword         Reply with quote

Detail


 Attachment: 7.26 KB
Champa 5.jpg


I collect swords and bayonets dated WWI back to the Bronze Age from the US and Europe and ancient swords and other weapons from Eurasia. I participate in many historical forums for the study of ancient history and weapons. I am happy to share what expertise I have. John Piscopo
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,180

PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb, 2004 2:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

John,
Unlike SFI, you can attach multiple pictures in the same post to make things easier to view. Also, linking in photos from outside sources works just like on SFI.

Cool pics!

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
John Piscopo




Location: LaGrange, IL 60525 SW of Chicago
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb, 2004 2:52 pm    Post subject: Champa Sword         Reply with quote

Detail


 Attachment: 8.4 KB
Champa 6.jpg


I collect swords and bayonets dated WWI back to the Bronze Age from the US and Europe and ancient swords and other weapons from Eurasia. I participate in many historical forums for the study of ancient history and weapons. I am happy to share what expertise I have. John Piscopo
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John Piscopo




Location: LaGrange, IL 60525 SW of Chicago
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb, 2004 2:59 pm    Post subject: Champa Sword 2         Reply with quote

Dear Friends,

I should point out that I do not own the above sword, it was offered to me as Champa and thus it is defined. I have no books that show this but I suspect that it is from the Khmer Kingdom. When it was offered to me I did not have sufficient funds to make the purchase.

The sword below is absolutely from the Champa Kingdom, it was purchased by a Thai dealer for me in the old Vietnamese capital of Hue where it was found locally.



 Attachment: 8.67 KB
Picture 009.jpg


I collect swords and bayonets dated WWI back to the Bronze Age from the US and Europe and ancient swords and other weapons from Eurasia. I participate in many historical forums for the study of ancient history and weapons. I am happy to share what expertise I have. John Piscopo
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John Piscopo




Location: LaGrange, IL 60525 SW of Chicago
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb, 2004 3:02 pm    Post subject: Champa 2         Reply with quote

Detail


 Attachment: 18.09 KB
Picture 011.jpg


 Attachment: 36.91 KB
Picture 012.jpg


 Attachment: 19.77 KB
Picture 013.jpg


 Attachment: 25.29 KB
Picture 014.jpg


I collect swords and bayonets dated WWI back to the Bronze Age from the US and Europe and ancient swords and other weapons from Eurasia. I participate in many historical forums for the study of ancient history and weapons. I am happy to share what expertise I have. John Piscopo
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John Piscopo




Location: LaGrange, IL 60525 SW of Chicago
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb, 2004 3:04 pm    Post subject: Champa Sword 2         Reply with quote

Details


 Attachment: 23.79 KB
Picture 016.jpg


I collect swords and bayonets dated WWI back to the Bronze Age from the US and Europe and ancient swords and other weapons from Eurasia. I participate in many historical forums for the study of ancient history and weapons. I am happy to share what expertise I have. John Piscopo
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John Piscopo




Location: LaGrange, IL 60525 SW of Chicago
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb, 2004 3:07 pm    Post subject: Champa Sword 2         Reply with quote

Detail


 Attachment: 20.45 KB
Picture 019.jpg


 Attachment: 33.57 KB
Picture 020.jpg


I collect swords and bayonets dated WWI back to the Bronze Age from the US and Europe and ancient swords and other weapons from Eurasia. I participate in many historical forums for the study of ancient history and weapons. I am happy to share what expertise I have. John Piscopo
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John Piscopo




Location: LaGrange, IL 60525 SW of Chicago
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb, 2004 3:12 pm    Post subject: Dong Son Weapons Display         Reply with quote

Dear Friends,

I am posting two pictures that are a bit out of date to show you what Dong Son Weapons look like. If you have any questions on any specific piece, please contact me directly at jpisc98357@aol.com.



 Attachment: 119.7 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 104.29 KB
[ Download ]

I collect swords and bayonets dated WWI back to the Bronze Age from the US and Europe and ancient swords and other weapons from Eurasia. I participate in many historical forums for the study of ancient history and weapons. I am happy to share what expertise I have. John Piscopo
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John Piscopo




Location: LaGrange, IL 60525 SW of Chicago
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb, 2004 3:17 pm    Post subject: Dong Son Weapons         Reply with quote

Dear Friends,

The bottom picture above is actually the top of my Dong Son display board and shows my single bronze Dong Son sword. As you might guess, the top picture is actually showing the bottom half of my display.

If anyone is interested, the hilts at the bottom of the picture are of Swedish swords. You will note, if you look carefully, my dagger example of what Mikkel Pedersen is offering in the link I posted above, see the slotted hilt. I purchased most of these items from Mikkel. They are relatively inexpensive when compared to European Bronze Age weapons.

I collect swords and bayonets dated WWI back to the Bronze Age from the US and Europe and ancient swords and other weapons from Eurasia. I participate in many historical forums for the study of ancient history and weapons. I am happy to share what expertise I have. John Piscopo
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Ruel A. Macaraeg





Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 306

PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb, 2004 5:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

John,

Any idea on the age of the Cham sword? Champa was around for nearly 1000 years, and doubtless its weapons went through many phases. Cham art, like art from elsewhere in SEAsia, doesn't provide much definitive information beyond the last couple centuries, by which time of course the Cham kindgom had been conquered by Vietnam and its people dispersed to the mountains or to Hainan, where they are today.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John Piscopo




Location: LaGrange, IL 60525 SW of Chicago
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb, 2004 6:23 pm    Post subject: Champa Swords         Reply with quote

Dear Ruel,

The links to the Champa sites that I have found are above. I do not have any books that show any Champa artifacts,
anything purchased on the commercial market will be orphans until someone in Vietnam does an in depth study of excavated weapons that will enable stratigraphic and epigraphic dating.

I have books on the more ancient cultures but nothing on the Champa and Khmer or Thai Kingdoms that reigned from 500 AD to the coming of the European powers.

The Mongols came by sea and conquered the Champas in the 13th Century, I would date anything Champa before that date as a rule but would always say that the conquest of the capital would not mean that the whole countryside disappeared from the Champa map. Pockets of technology would have persisted even after the conquest by the Vietnamese.

I collect swords and bayonets dated WWI back to the Bronze Age from the US and Europe and ancient swords and other weapons from Eurasia. I participate in many historical forums for the study of ancient history and weapons. I am happy to share what expertise I have. John Piscopo
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Andrew Winston




Location: Florida, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2003

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb, 2004 9:29 pm    Post subject: Re: SE Asian Weapons         Reply with quote

Big Grin



John Piscopo wrote:
Do any of your Dong Son swords look like this?


Dear Andrew,

No, everything I have seen from the Dong Son and Dian areas has been made of bronze, your sword looks more like a Dha which may belong to the Khmer, Thai or Burmese areas. The hilt looks like polished brass with an iron blade, that would lead me to discount Khmer. I would suggest that it would date to the 17th C. or later.

The brass hilt would have been cast onto the iron blade.

I will consider posting some pictures, a Champa sword dating to 1000 AD +/- 200 is posted below. The Champa Kingdom ruled central Vietnam, the region commonly known as Annam. Here is a website that will tell you more about this kingdom: http://www.limsi.fr/Recherche/CIG/echampa.htm If you get interested and want to learn more, go to:
http://www.namviet.net/travel/attractions/champa.html

I only have one bronze sword that is Dong Son, several Khmer swords. Beware, I purchased a supposed Thai Sukothai sword that turned out to be a British Enfield bayonet with a cast on bronze hilt and left to rust. If you are interested in purchasing ancient weapons from the Dong Son area, the Red River Valley from Haiphong to Yunnan in China, I would recommend that you contact Mikkel Pedersen in Copenhagen Denmark. He has one listing for a Dong Son weapon on eBay now: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem...3701163379 I have several smaller dagger size pieces in this style.

Why do you object to signing up for the Yahoo Groups? All you have to do is complete a profile and you can join good historical groups that interest you. I own Dong Son, Thailand, Kushan and Chinese Archaeology Groups and moderate Ancient Weapons and coin (AFST) groups and I am a member of dozens of others. Try joining my http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientweapons and take a look at the Photo archives. I have posted hundreds of pictures of my collection.



John:

Outstanding information! Thank you, particularly for the photos. Some of this I've not come across before, and has given me much to think about.

The photo I've posted is of a sword in the Met's collection. They have it identified as Dong Son. I strongly doubt that. Ironically, I just posted this in a related thread about a purported "Khmer" sword on SFI's General Forum (http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30309).

"Here's a photo of it, along with a "Montagnard" style dha from my personal collection. The similarities in form, dimension and proportion are, to me, striking. My sword is no more than 100 years old.

Met's sword:


My sword:


I have no objection to registering on Yahoo. It's just that, for me, reading and responding on this thread is easier and more meaningful with the pix posted right in the thread.


Best regards,
Andrew

"I gave 'em a sword. And they stuck it in, and they twisted it with relish.
And I guess if I had been in their position, I'd have done the same thing."
-Richard Milhous Nixon
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
John Piscopo




Location: LaGrange, IL 60525 SW of Chicago
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Wed 04 Feb, 2004 7:00 am    Post subject: SE Asian Swords         Reply with quote

Dear Andrew,

The Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City blew their identification big time on this Dha. Apparantly their expert in this area accepted a story given to him by the Donor of the sword, not a good practice. I always regard such swords in my collection as "orphans" until I am able to properly document them with a literature reference.

I would recommend a visit to Mikkel Pedersen's site: http://www.senatusconsulto.com/weapons/nyweapons.htm#212-antenne
He has a number of nice ancient weapons which include some nice write ups. I do not think that his description of an Iranian antenna sword is accurate, I researched the item last year and could find nothing similar in my Iranian books. He has some nice Dong Son daggers and spearheads for sale.

I collect swords and bayonets dated WWI back to the Bronze Age from the US and Europe and ancient swords and other weapons from Eurasia. I participate in many historical forums for the study of ancient history and weapons. I am happy to share what expertise I have. John Piscopo
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Andrew Winston




Location: Florida, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2003

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Wed 04 Feb, 2004 11:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi John. I agree with your asessment of the Met's misidentification of that sword. I've handled too many substantially identical weapons dating no earlier than the 19th century to come to any other conclusion. It's patently incredible that a 2000 year old form would survive so unchanged.

I've seen those Dong Son daggers (the ones with the basket-like pommels) many times over the years. While I beleive them to be based on a genuine, excavated example, I'm very concerned as to authenticity of those that appear on eBay. There have been so many that, if genuine, it makes one think such artifacts are being found in every rice paddy in Vietnam.

Having said that, I have no experience with the particular seller you've mentioned, so I have no comment about the weapon(s) he's offering. What's your opinion on that?

Best,
Andrew

"I gave 'em a sword. And they stuck it in, and they twisted it with relish.
And I guess if I had been in their position, I'd have done the same thing."
-Richard Milhous Nixon
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Ancient Weapons in SE Asia
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2019 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum