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Jonathan Hopkins
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 Posted: Wed 24 Jan, 2007 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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The attribution of your Holbein being a hunting dagger reminds me of other European hunting weapons. When does a weapon become a copy or a replica or a reproduction? The hunting sword survived for centuries in Germany, and it seems that the Holbein had a very long life as well. Perhaps some daggers are/were made with the intent to copy a late Medieval or Renaissance weapon, but other were just persisting into more modern times.
Jonathan
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Michael Wipf
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| Posted: Wed 24 Jan, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Jonathan Hopkins wrote: | The attribution of your Holbein being a hunting dagger reminds me of other European hunting weapons. When does a weapon become a copy or a replica or a reproduction? The hunting sword survived for centuries in Germany, and it seems that the Holbein had a very long life as well. Perhaps some daggers are/were made with the intent to copy a late Medieval or Renaissance weapon, but other were just persisting into more modern times.
Jonathan |
That's a good question and I agree.
How can you ever be positive about authenticity? There doesn't seem to be many reliable reference books in this genre and we all know museums are not infallible. So all we really have are the various opinions. I suppose you could go to a laboratory for metallurgy and have the metal analyzed for content and age. I know of a person that has access to this type of facility. But the costs are astronomical.. I have shown this piece to several highly knowledgable people, they all like it, but because of the rarity of this example, cannot give a definite answer.
Gentlemen, I have enjoyed our discussion and have greatly appreciated all your input, interest and opinion ..
Mike W.
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 25 Jan, 2007 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Wipf wrote: |
That's a good question and I agree.
How can you ever be positive about authenticity? There doesn't seem to be many reliable reference books in this genre and we all know museums are not infallible. So all we really have are the various opinions. I suppose you could go to a laboratory for metallurgy and have the metal analyzed for content and age. I know of a person that has access to this type of facility. But the costs are astronomical.. I have shown this piece to several highly knowledgable people, they all like it, but because of the rarity of this example, cannot give a definite answer.
Gentlemen, I have enjoyed our discussion and have greatly appreciated all your input, interest and opinion ..
Mike W. |
I think unless the item is an important piece with a very carefully recorded provenance it is almost impossible to be 100% positive about the authenticity of a particular piece. Perhaps the lab analysis you mention is a very good stab at it though. Even then I can see things being cobbled together from various old bits and so not being truly "authentic" although they may be old. The case comes to mind of the "Black Prince" sword that Ewart Oakeshott owned, although it had all the right characteristics right down to fitting in the scabbard because the chain of provenance was broken he was never able to "prove" it's authenticity to the satisfaction of those who keep the accoutrements of the Black Prince. I think you make a good case for this piece being authentic and so far no one that I have shown the pictures to has been able to come up with anything definitive as to why it could NOT be authentic. 
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Wojciech Michalski
Location: Poland Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Hiya everyone!
I was wondering if someone could give me some specific dating of this pretty swiss dagger. Personally I think it could be made about second half of fifteen century.
What do you think??
Thanks much for any answers!
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 20 Mar, 2007 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| Wojciech Michalski wrote: | Hiya everyone!
I was wondering if someone could give me some specific dating of this pretty swiss dagger. Personally I think it could be made about second half of fifteen century.
What do you think??
Thanks much for any answers! |
Unfortunately I have no other insights, but would love to pick your brain. Why do you believe that it is from the second half of the 15th century instead of earlier or later?
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Wojciech Michalski
Location: Poland Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Wed 21 Mar, 2007 8:41 am Post subject: |
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All right, my barin is broadcasting now.
The shape of the dagger is surely very close to dated for 16 century holbein daggers. However, there ae few signinificant differences:
- the shape of blade in cross-section is rather oval, while characteristic shape of it for reinessance daggers is rather in shape of rhombus - that can mean it is earlier than XVI century
- it lacks characteristic for reinessance weapons decoractions like, in case of holbein dagger fancy shaped hilt, brass guard,
very fancy ornamented sheath. Of course that may incline that it is cheap version but still it's design merges well with late medieval tendency to simplicity
- the shape of guard - it is bigger than in holbein dagger, what can reflect earlier type - look at the picture 1 (canopy 1401)
Now why not 14 century
That's easy - typollogy of medieval daggers by Seitz says that 14th century swiss daggers had shapes like in the picture 3, botom right
Now, why second half of XV century?
Well that's only my own theory. But if you compare the shape of whole hilt of the dagger with the hilts of daggers from pictures 1 and 2 (canopy 1409) you can see its more like holbein dagger hilt. The length of blade is also comparable to holbein and shorter than in picture 1 and 2. The blade is also bit thinner than in holbeins, but not as thin like in swiss dagger in picture 3 (centre) Museum of Art, Philadelphia - I don't know dating of this unfortunaly, but it's proboly 15th century.
Moreover Seitz gives us type of 15 century swiss dagger with characteristic guard which one end is longer than other (of length like in posted dagger) and hilt quite simillar to this one.
All of this may suppose that this dagger is kind of protoholbein dagger, from which holbein evolved and this shape could be used in second half of 15 cent, not long before typicall holbeins came to use.
That is my personal opinion.
Don't hit me if I'm wrong.
What do think about it?
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Wojciech Michalski
Location: Poland Joined: 14 Mar 2007
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 21 Mar, 2007 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| Wojciech Michalski wrote: | That is my personal opinion.
Don't hit me if I'm wrong.
What do think about it? |
Heck I'm not going to hit you. If you read above you will note that I personally can't even make a determination that this thing is an antique vs a modern reproduction only that there's nothing that seriously mitigates against it being an antique as far as I can tell it could be. I think you are right about the general form, although am hesitant to say definitively that "such and such form is exclusive to time period X." We all know that there's always that outlier that gets you in trouble, especially when trying to base your case exclusively upon form. Honestly I've come to the conclusion that construction methodology is often more important then form when trying to pin down a date of manufacture. I was sort of hoping you had things to say about how the dagger was put together. As far as making a form arguement I think you are doing alright, although I would be cautious about making a definitive statement based on only a couple of examples especially when some of the examples noted are funerary brasses. The problems with funerary arrangements is that they would typically show items that were contemporary to when the funerary arrangement was created not necessarily things that were contemporary to the person who is buried there.
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Wojciech Michalski
Location: Poland Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Fri 23 Mar, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I wrote about form rather than this particular dagger. And as I am not an expert at all I really can't say anything sure of this dagger authenticy, especially if I have only its picture.
My statements weren't rather definitive, and if they were so, I really didn't mean it
But, as for the iconography I lately found some pictures of swiss daggers (or basilards - couse the question what is the diffrence between swiss dagger and basilard is still painfully open for me) with the shape of guard very close to this dagger although the length of blade is much more longer, like in the short sword. That swiss daggers (short-swords/basilards) are certainly pre-holbein type. You can see them on Osprey, Swiss at war, p. 22. Unfortunately they are not dated.
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Michal Plezia
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 15 Feb, 2009 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Is there any example of decorated 15 century swiss dagger?
All I know are pretty simple.
www.elchon.com
Polish Guild of Knifemakers
The sword is a weapon for killing, the art of the sword is the art of killing. No matter what fancy words you use or what titles you put to
it that is the only truth.
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