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S. Al-Anizi
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Steve Grisetti
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 Posted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: Re: A 500 year old Blade? |
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| S. Al-Anizi wrote: | | ... I would like to know any details regarding this blade, and if truely is 500 years old or not. It has the inscription "England 1510" on its spine, and is single edged.... |
It is dangerous to try to evaluate a purported antique via photos over the internet, and, on top of that, I am no expert on antiques. But  that won't stop me from giving my 2cents worth of comments:
(a) blade form, with the broad fuller and single edge, is not typical of English manufacture in 1510.
(b) that blade looks awfully bright, shiny and smooth for 500 years old.
(c) the third photo came out blurry, but keeping that in mind, the script still strikes me as looking very modern, and also very crisp and clean - almost like the engraving was done yesterday  .
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 7:01 am Post subject: Re: A 500 year old Blade? |
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The blade clearly resembles an Oakeshott X type, so it should be one thousand years old, plus it is shiny, apparently intact.
So we would have a blade made one thousands here ago in Europe, possibly viking, in modern islamic mounting.
Oner thing could be a blade taken from southern Europe in late medieval or renaissance time, one other a blade that has travelled for half world for one thousand years and it is still intact, while being mounted recently in islamic garb.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: |
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The blade is single-edged as evidenced by the spine or back of the blade shown in the last photo and the design of the fuller as more clearly shown in the second photo. It also has a false edge near the tip, as closer examination of the first photo will show. Hardly a Type X in Oakeshotts typology.
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | The blade is single-edged as evidenced by the spine or back of the blade shown in the last photo and the design of the fuller as more clearly shown in the second photo. It also has a false edge near the tip, as closer examination of the first photo will show. Hardly a Type X in Oakeshotts typology. |
In any case I wouldn't credit such a blade as a five hundreed years old european antique.
As long as I can see it is brand new, and the shape is strange for an european weapon of the XVI century, that should be evident.
Maybe a series of perfect pics with balanced light and ultra fine details could reveal otherwise, but I wouldn't really spend much money on that, as long as it is not a good example of islamic weapon.
The scabbard and hilt seem to be carryng a lot of precious materials, but I would ask an expert of oriental weapons before making any move.
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S. Al-Anizi
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| Posted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: A 500 year old Blade? |
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| Steve Grisetti wrote: | | S. Al-Anizi wrote: | | ... I would like to know any details regarding this blade, and if truely is 500 years old or not. It has the inscription "England 1510" on its spine, and is single edged.... |
It is dangerous to try to evaluate a purported antique via photos over the internet, and, on top of that, I am no expert on antiques. But that won't stop me from giving my 2cents worth of comments:
(a) blade form, with the broad fuller and single edge, is not typical of English manufacture in 1510.
(b) that blade looks awfully bright, shiny and smooth for 500 years old.
(c) the third photo came out blurry, but keeping that in mind, the script still strikes me as looking very modern, and also very crisp and clean - almost like the engraving was done yesterday . |
Exactly my line of thinking, however, a friend of mine linked it to the English 1796 heavy cav pattern, and it sure looks similar to that, but who and why would inscribe England and 1510 on the spine? Im quite sure its not the guy re-fitted this sword in this fashion, as he doesnt know any english.
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S. Al-Anizi
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| Posted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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The closest thing so far, to this sword, is the English Heavy Cavalry 1796 pattern. Re-fitted in an arab fashion, with materials that only royalty could offer at the time. Pure gold fittings, camel hide, inlaid with turquoise. This is an excellent example of not an islamic sword, but rather a hybrid you could call it. The blade is certainly not in the condition a 500 year old blade would be. There was also a crown with a latin inscription near the forte, which I forgot to photo.
Anyway, thanks all for your comments 
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Although we can't say with any certainty from viewing photos, I don't think it's an antique, at least not at that level of age. It is pretty though.
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Torsten F.H. Wilke
Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 250
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| Posted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Edit: During what period was this "false edge" in general use, by the way?
Last edited by Torsten F.H. Wilke on Sun 21 Jan, 2007 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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S. Al-Anizi
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| Posted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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Believe me guys, this is an antique, the fittings are new, but the blade is old, as with all the other swords in the shop, with blades like chatterlaut, Wilhelm clauberg, and Klingenthal, all in newly made arab mounts, its just this one thats a mystery.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| S. Al-Anizi wrote: | | Believe me guys, this is an antique, the fittings are new, but the blade is old, as with all the other swords in the shop, with blades like chatterlaut, Wilhelm clauberg, and Klingenthal, all in newly made arab mounts, its just this one thats a mystery. |
For future reference: that information would have been useful in your initial post. That's a good indication of why it's so pretty. 
As has already been stated, the blade design is something we wouldn't commonly expect to see from England, circa 1510. Does anyone have any ideas about the purpose of the cross-hatching on the tip?
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D. Bell
Location: New Zealand Joined: 01 May 2004
Posts: 73
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| Posted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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Are you sure that the date on the blade is 1510 and not 1810? I have an 1886 bayonet where the eights could just about be mistaken for fives, and 1810 would be a much more reasonable date for this blade.
An armed society is a polite society.
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S. Al-Anizi
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| Posted: Mon 22 Jan, 2007 3:21 am Post subject: |
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Sorry for not being clear Wont happen again. This blade looks most like the 1796 pattern, if not for that inscription, it sure would be. I am sure that the inscription is 1510, not 1810, as that is what intrigued me the most with this blade, it being very old. What would an inscription like this, written in Tudor script used in the 1500's, be doing on a 1796 blade? Also, whats with the cross-hatching?
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Mon 22 Jan, 2007 6:05 am Post subject: |
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The crosss hatching could well have been done to cover up a corrosion/pitting problem. The whole effort might have been no more than a way to simply recycle a sword that was in very tired condition.
The hilt has kind of an Ottoman, or eastern European look to it. Has anyone run some Google searches on the date 1510?
Cheers
GC
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Mon 22 Jan, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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That's because the blade has been remounted with what looks like a 19th-20th century Saudi Arabian hilt. There are many examples of Arab swords (especially Sudanese swords) which have a 17th-18th century European blade and Arab style hilts. The bazaars of Saudi Arabia are filled with wonderful examples of antique European, Persian, Indian and Arab blades, although in recent years these markets have been flooded with cheap Syrian wallhangers.
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John H
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| Posted: Tue 23 Jan, 2007 11:37 am Post subject: Victorian at best |
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Well, I'm no licensed appraiser, but I have handled both authentic and fake "antiques". We're at a disadvantage because we can't examine the piece in person, as has been mentioned. One of the quickest ways to discern a historical blade is by how it feels. Is is light and lively? That is something that very very few forgeries have accomplished up til modern times. That would be a little tougher to tell with this piece which has obviosuly been re-hilted as has been discussed. Thus, the handling will suffer accordingly. Also, the blade looks to be in WAY too nice condition. Museum or family-heirloom condition. Not knocking-around-a-mid-East bazaar condition.
With all that said, I think the clear indication that this is not period is the inscription itself. If you are a swordsmith in the 16th century, what inscription are you going to put on the blade? Methinks "England 1510" would not be it. Why would you put that on the blade? I can certainly see a Victorian maker putting that on the blade to lend supposed "authenticity". It's the equivalent of finding a description on the blade that reads, "100% Genuine Artifact made in England in 1510. Guaranteed!"
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Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini
Location: Magenta, east of Milano, northern Italy Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Tue 23 Jan, 2007 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: A 500 year old Blade? |
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| S. Al-Anizi wrote: | Hi,
I would like to know any details regarding this blade, and if truely is 500 years old or not. It has the inscription "England 1510" on its spine, and is single edged. It also has some cross hatched incisions on the tip, probably as decoration. I would appreciate any help.  |
Hi Carter. Happy to see you here too.
Still that arab nickname you use on Ethnograpfhic Arms and Armor Forum ?
This is a reaally great site to learn from, and i'm lurking here from a while.
Hope you'll post something on the wootz here. Always interesting matter to discuss. 
Have all the best.
Carlo
Please forgive my english
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