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Randall Moffett
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 Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 1:42 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Jean, I will wait to read the report before deciding it is invalid. I know that the Royal Military College that is doing the testing on blunt force trauma is one of the leading institutes in the country, probably the world for such testing so I think the loads of money and credentialed men and women there can run a fair test, perhaps not imperfect but fair. (They also had done work on penetration, which has been covered and is a very good test covering from the known details a variety of heat treated metals both arrows and breastplates). If I remember right they are one of the main groups that tests modern ballistics armour as well for the British Military.
I assume it is possible to kill a man with the right amount of energy over a specific area. The heart for example. I believe I have read 12 joules of force over the heart or lungs can do a man into cardiac concussion (report of US military ballistics vest, early 2000 but I do not currently have access to it since the move). The issue returns to the likelihood of the arrow being able to direct the required amount of impact through all the armours, metal and textile. It probably returns to a small percentage of men but I will wait for the testing and see findings, (and Dan there are sources of being bodies all over the place after Agincourt, the French, Burgundian and English sources all seem to indicate a fairly large rate of men defeated by the arrows of the archers-how much organ rupturing went on..... no idea). As far as how much rupturing goes on inside well I don't know in general either.
RPM
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| Randall Moffett wrote: | | Iand Dan there are sources of being bodies all over the place after Agincourt, the French, Burgundian and English sources all seem to indicate a fairly large rate of men defeated by the arrows of the archers |
The majority of the sources I've read indicate that most of the casualties (i.e. deaths) were caused by archers after they engaged in hand to hand combat.
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 3:40 am Post subject: |
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Which ones per se do you have in mind? The Gesta, Elmham, Tito Livio, Geste des Nobles Francois and the Chronicle of Charles VI all seem to indicate the archers had done a great deal of creating not just havoc but laying down good numbers of men at arms down before they even reached the English Lines. I agree the Archers did damage as they engaged in melee but I don't recollect any statements that seem to clearly indicate the archers killed more after they engaged.
RPM
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Leo Todeschini wrote:
They were working with a 150llb draw and even when the arrow didn't pierce armour the energy imparted was often enough to rupture internal organs.
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Sounds like nonsense. When cops get shot over their bullet proof vests... they usually get knocked down... sometimes their sternum or ribs break... but their internal organs do not get injured unless the bullet actualy penatrates them.
Internal organs are more likely to get ruptured as you say if a knight falls off his horse and comes to a sudden stop by hitting a tree. Such injuries have been observed in car accident at high speeds when wearing a seatbelt. You may not hit the windshield, but your internal organs crash forward inside your body in a sudden stop. Of course if you where not wearing the seatbelt you would be dead from head-injury or having a stearingwheel where your heart use to be. Better to take your chance with the seatbelt.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Benjamin H. Abbott
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| Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | A baseball pitch thrown by a professional pitcher has nearly twice the momentum of a 60 gram arrow thrown from a 154lbs bow and 50% more kinetic energy. |
That's a rather light arrow for a 154lb bow. The fastest pitches only manage around 150 J. This is very close to the energy a 150lb bow puts into a heavy arrow.
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Marcos Cantu
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| Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote: | | Quote: | Leo Todeschini wrote:
They were working with a 150llb draw and even when the arrow didn't pierce armour the energy imparted was often enough to rupture internal organs.
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Sounds like nonsense. When cops get shot over their bullet proof vests... they usually get knocked down... sometimes their sternum or ribs break... but their internal organs do not get injured unless the bullet actualy penatrates them.
Internal organs are more likely to get ruptured as you say if a knight falls off his horse and comes to a sudden stop by hitting a tree. Such injuries have been observed in car accident at high speeds when wearing a seatbelt. You may not hit the windshield, but your internal organs crash forward inside your body in a sudden stop. Of course if you where not wearing the seatbelt you would be dead from head-injury or having a stearingwheel where your heart use to be. Better to take your chance with the seatbelt. |
Its very rare for someone wearing body armor to be knocked down when they are shot. If the force of a bullet was able to knock someone down, it would also knock down the person doing the shooting. More likely they fell when they realized they had been shot...
There is no way that a non-penetrating arrow would be able to cause any significant damage to internal organs...
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Marcos Cantu wrote: | | There is no way that a non-penetrating arrow would be able to cause any significant damage to internal organs... |
Well maybe a ballista bolt weighing a few pounds might cause serious blunt trauma even if it didn't pierce a breast plate.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Wed 15 Nov, 2006 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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Hold on a second here boys. First off modern balistic testing does equate for blunt force trauma of rounds that do not pierce the vest. Second the wide range of bullets to totally different in how it will effect the reciever, a 38 for example verses a 9mm is very different. Third people with bullet proof jackets do suffer from internal blunt force trauma, I have a cousin who had his kevlar vest on luckily and a rifle bullet hit him, did not penetrate him or his kill plate but broke a half dozen of ribs but the internal organ damage was what was the most dangerous. In all accounts he should have been killed from internal organ damage. Before you all continue I would recommend looking up the balistic testing your local government military does because this is covered I am sure with a wide variety of types of weapons and types of armour and may help clear this up. Also with many rounds the weight is very small compared to a arrow. Now whether it is going fast enough very important as well but I would go look some of this info up before I made my decision.
RPM
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Marcos Cantu
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| Posted: Thu 16 Nov, 2006 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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In the US, a maximum of 44mm of Back Face Deformation (BFD) into clay is allowed to receive NIJ certification for body armor. As far as the .38 to 9mm comparison, they are pretty much the same round and are of the same threat level in the NIJ ratings (mostly IIA). However, if the 9mm is fired out of a longer barrel it goes up in level.
I would equate soft body armor to maile and rifle plates to plate armor. The soft armor works by absorbing the energy of a bullet and redirecting it along its fibers and works best against low to medium velocity threats (handgun and submachine gun rounds).
An arrow has much less energy than a bullet; esp. at ranges over 100m and against shaped hard armor would have a difficult time penetrating except at very close range. The thing with hard armor, is that if it is dented, the dent remains and can press against the body and restrict breathing and movement...something that is not an issue with current soft body armor
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Sun 26 Nov, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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I have been doing some additional research on this topic and some practical testing of my own. I am happy to say that I have reversed my position.
My initial opinion that drawing 150 lb bows in battle is based the Victorian method of using a bow. This is a method that pulls the string back using the rear delts. With this method it is indeed imposible to pull a 150 lb'er effectivly. I have been experimenting with another style I had never heard and really has no common name because it is relativly forgotten. People refer to it as medieval style. This is a method were you lean forward holding the bow low and pulling the sting back in a circular motion and then straightening up a bit. The ass sticks out a bit in the final position. In pulling the string back this way you utilize the large latisimus dorsi muscles "lats". These are the same musles you use when you are doing pullups.
I think I will be ordering a new bow soon to try this out. I found someone who will make me a 160 lbs at 31" for about $250. If anyone here know of any other bowyers, let me know. The discusion here has been very prosperous.
Vassilis
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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James Barker
Location: Ashburn VA Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 365
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| Posted: Mon 27 Nov, 2006 6:25 am Post subject: |
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Vassilis
What wood is the bow you are thinking of having made? If it is a proper wood and medieval design I would love to know who you are buying from.
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Mon 27 Nov, 2006 6:35 am Post subject: |
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It is Hickory . It is the second one on the following link called "Odysseus".
http://www.stickbowworld.com/page4.html
The bigger question is where I'm I going to get arrows to match this draw weight. The arrrow quality is more important for flight then the bow itself. The bow just provides the initial power. Most people who are at this advaced level make thier own arrows. I may have to experiment with arrow making. For now, I just want to get my hands on a heavy bow and practice drawing it.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Mon 27 Nov, 2006 8:07 am Post subject: |
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Vassilis,
I have some friends who shoot the heavy bows and also know where to buy and how to make arrows. If you like I could send them your email and see if they could not help out with any questions.
RPM
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Mon 27 Nov, 2006 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. Send them the link to the link I posted and see what they think of this bow. Also ask them if they know where to get arrows spined to 150-160 lbs
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Mon 27 Nov, 2006 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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OK I will go ahead and send the link.
RPM
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Matthew G.
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| Posted: Sat 09 Dec, 2006 8:03 am Post subject: |
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hey everyone yeah i just found this site while looking for longbow plans i will soon be making longbows for another hobby of mine and i was thinking that 150# warbows did exist why would scientists try to pull back a 500 year bow when they could make measurements and get some1 to build a bow to those standards its more accurate. yeah and i know theres people that cant even pull back 70lb recurve but they also don't shoot as much as i do. the most draw weight i can handle right now is 120lb and thats just pulling back not when trying to be accurate i want to start making my bows but don't know what kinds of wood to use i would love to make a yew longbow but the price of even yew is through the roof any suggestions for what wood to use note: please keep in mind i'm a beginner and i'm only 16 so the price i can pay for any wood isn't much at the moment
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Eric Meulemans
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 09 Dec, 2006 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| Benjamin H. Abbott wrote: | | Quote: | | A baseball pitch thrown by a professional pitcher has nearly twice the momentum of a 60 gram arrow thrown from a 154lbs bow and 50% more kinetic energy. |
That's a rather light arrow for a 154lb bow. The fastest pitches only manage around 150 J. This is very close to the energy a 150lb bow puts into a heavy arrow. |
The important point (haha) to remember here is that even given equivalent force, the area over which it is being applied is much smaller on an arrow vs. a baseball or its period equivalent, a stone (propelled perhaps by a sling). While we may wish to consider the "blunt force trauma" potential of an arrow for an academic exercise, it is not the principle means by which it inflicts damage. Arrows kill by exsanguination, and thus expend their energy over a greater period so as to inflict as long a wound channel as possible, to increase tissue damage. Stones, or bullets, on the other hand, seek to expend as much of their energy over the shortest period possible, causing damage by hydrostatic shock and wide intial wound paths. This explains the opposing obsessions of "penetration" and "expansion" found in archery and firearms adherents, respectively. I'm no ballistician, but this is the essential principle difference between them. The simplest demonstration of this functional difference is the penetration of an arrow vs. a bullet into water:
"The Bureau of Ordnance conducted tests to determine depths of water to give protection against cal. .50 and cal. .30 AP bullets fired with service charges from a few inches above the water surface. A target of 1" pine boards was suspended at various depths with its surface at right angles to the line of fire. Complete penetration of the board was termed a lethal impact. With the cal. .50 fired vertically downward, the critical distance for complete penetration was found to lie between 4 and 5 ft. When fired at oblique angles (barrel inclined 45 degrees and 60 degrees from vertical) the lethal travel was reduced to approximately 1 ft. The cal. .30 was fired vertically only; complete penetrations were obtained at 1 ft. but not at 2 ft." (NRA Firearms Fact Book, 1989.)
In contrast, the average bowfishing setup will push an arrow through 4-5 feet of water and still make a kill (at least, on a fish, maybe not a 1" pine board, but come on', we're comparing arrows to .30 and .50 cal AP rounds here...). Basically it's the difference between a nicely executed dive and a bellyflop. "Bullet proof" vest are not, therefore, inherently "arrow/knife proof", nor does the sort of armor effective in defending against edged weapons/projectiles (i.e maille) do any good against a bullet. It's also why we should all groan when we see arrow-struck combatants in films who instantly keel over like they've been hit by an oncoming locomotive.
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Josh Warren
Location: Manhattan, Kansas Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Posts: 111
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| Posted: Sat 09 Dec, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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On the subject of arrows supposedly being able to inflict enough blunt trauma to kill/incapacitate even through if they don't penetrate armour, a jouster on the Armour Archive has this to say:
| Quote: | | I am pretty sure that a lance, locked into a lance rest, being held by a 300+lb (armour and man) jouster on a 1800lb horse going about 22mph would create more blunt trauma than said arrow - if this is true, a whole lot of us jousters are dead and just don't know it. |
I've seen figures of ~150 joules for arrows shot from a high-poundage longbow; what kind of force would our hypothetical jouster be pushing behind that lance head?
I have also recently acquired a 100-pound bow and some of the correct arrows; I will be seeing what sort of material they can pierce as soon as they arrive. Recent photos of tests I've seen lead me to believe that, if an arrow shot from a 120-pound+ bow strikes at a more-or-less 90-degree angle at close range, it can indeed drive through 2mm steel. I don't think it can penetrate 3mm though, especially if the steel has been hardened.
Non Concedo
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 09 Dec, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthew G. wrote: | | hey everyone yeah i just found this site while looking for longbow plans i will soon be making longbows for another hobby of mine and i was thinking that 150# warbows did exist why would scientists try to pull back a 500 year bow when they could make measurements and get some1 to build a bow to those standards its more accurate. yeah and i know theres people that cant even pull back 70lb recurve but they also don't shoot as much as i do. the most draw weight i can handle right now is 120lb and thats just pulling back not when trying to be accurate i want to start making my bows but don't know what kinds of wood to use i would love to make a yew longbow but the price of even yew is through the roof any suggestions for what wood to use note: please keep in mind i'm a beginner and i'm only 16 so the price i can pay for any wood isn't much at the moment |
Matthew, welcome to the site and here is a link to a site I found that is dedicated to the English War Bow:
http://www.englishwarbow.com/forum/index.php?
Maybe you can find some useful information there also ?
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Sat 09 Dec, 2006 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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Josh,
can you draw a 100 pound longbow? I have on an 80 pounder but I could not spand the 100 pounder fully. Be careful as well. I have heard some scary stories of people test shooting bows and crossbows (arrows deflecting that bounce back...) So be careful. It may help to find people who have already done testing on it and ask them about it. Be careful. Just a friendly reminder, I'd hate anything to go wrong.
RPM
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