[Chad Arnow]

[John Oliver]

I think I've started to notice a pattern here chaps:-)

After 25 years of sword collecting (having changed direction completely several times) I have finally worked out that this hobby COSTS MONEY - and lots of it:-)

For me though: I've owned a lot of swords over that 25 year period - but never own more than a few at any one time - in many cases I've simply learnt everything I felt I could learn/wanted to learn from a particular sword and then moved on... (although there are *always* some that end up being 'keepers' too:-)

One thing I do know - I wouldn't have missed out on any of it - there is so much more to this hobby - I sometimes feel the word 'hobby' isn't really enough to cover our magnificent obsession:-)

There isn't much that compares to the feel of a fine weapon in the hand - whether its one that goes bang or one that slices and dices:-))) I guess the difference for me is the amazing amount of skill and training it takes to *really* master the use of the blade - and to be honest I don't believe *any* of us really master it fully like our forebears did - simply because our lives/livelihoods don't depend on it like theirs did... We can certainly try to get as close as possible though...:-)

John.

[John Oliver]

Hi again all,

I FORGOT to ask something chaps - your thoughts would be greatly appreciated here...

I emailed Mike about this at Albion Swords - about when the original Solingen sword would have been made...

On their website it says 14th century in one place and 13th century in another place - Mike told me that was an error and that Peter Johnsson's notes place the original as having been made around 1280...

What I'm interested in is this: When you look at the shape/style of a sword like this WHAT tells you it is most likely from this period/time????

My Western sword expertise is more related to military pattern swords of the 18th and 19th centuries, smallswords, baskethilted swords and so on - and I really have almost ZERO expertise when it comes to Mediaeval swords...

I know I should probably start studying up on the Oakeshott typologies and so on - but what (for example) tells you this is NOT from say, the 11th or the 12th century?

John.

[Chad Arnow]

John,
Congrats on a fine sword. I love that one.

As for putting a date on that sword, there are a lot of factors. Most easily, the two surviving swords we have like it (from Solingen and its sister in the Royal Armouries) have been dated to that era by experts.

If you look at the sword, there are a few clues that indicate its date. The Leeds sword's "blade is marked "TOTOTOTO", an inscription often found on 13th-14th century rings and indicating an affirmation of loyalty and fidelity." The pommel form (Type W - see our Ewart Oakeshott article for more info) was popular from the 12th through the 14th century. There is a dagger with the same kind of pommel that's been dated to the 14th century. Another sword sold through Sotheby's a while back with the same pommel is dated to the 14th century also. There is also a Type XVI sword in the Kienbusch collection in Philly with a similar pommel dated to the same era (Oakeshott dated it to ~1300-1325). That gives us 5 pommels with a late 13th/early 14th century attribution (the two surviving well-published swords, the Philly one, plus the dagger and the sword below).





There's an effigy dated to ~1320-1340 that shows a similar pommel and guard.

Looking at the blade, it's a tough one to classify. It tapers perhaps a bit too much to be a "typical" Type XII, and not quite enough to be a "typical" Type XIV. The amount of taper, though, would seem to give it a later date than some early Type XII swords. I see it more as a Type XIV when you factor in the curved guard and wheel pommel that are so characteristic of the Type XIV. Type XII swords were popular for a longer stretch of time than Type XIV (~1260-1340). So the blade makes it not necessarily an early Type XII if you consider it a Type XII. If you consider it a Type XIV, that narrows the probable date range quite a bit. Oakeshott listed the Leeds sister sword as a Type XIV.

So we have a group of weapons with similar hilt components dated by knowledgable folks to the late 13th/early 14th centuries, and we have inscriptions on one of them that further confirm the date range. We have an effigy that ties it to that era as well. And we have a sword blade more appropriate for the beginning of the transitional era of armour than an earlier period.

By the way, we have an entire series of articles covering Oakeshott's life and his blade types. Check out our Features Page.

[John Oliver]

Hi Chad,

MANY thanks for that - if you don't mind I'll cut and paste your post into my 'Solingen file':-) (A word document I'm making up with any/all info I can get on the original Solingen sword/the other one in Leeds/the rather amazing recreation of it by Albion Swords...

I must admit, I'm finding it *very* difficult waiting for my new sword to arrive:-)

I also have to admit that what Albion Swords are doing has really changed my perception of this incredible hobby (or should I say passion?:-) I used to always think that if a sword wasn't original and untouched it wasn't worth having - but then I started to realize that it simply ISN'T POSSIBLE to always have that original perfect example of every sword you want... In the case of the most desirable of all (Viking, Norman, Mediaeval in general, etc.) it would be FAR OUTSIDE my ability to do financially... I have *wanted* to have a mediaeval knightly sword for as long as I can remember - but decided to simply go without because I could never afford the sort of sword I wanted (and in the condition I wanted)...

This museum line of Albion's is probably the one way someone like myself *can* afford to purchase fully functional replicas of original Mediaeval swords that have the handling characteristics, balance, harmonics, temper and so on of the originals - and the QUALITY of fit and finish... Who knows? It may well be that these swords could outperform the originals even?

I wouldn't rush out to buy a replica smallsword or 19th century military pattern sword - because these are well and truly still available out there - but in the case of Mediaeval/Rennaissance/earlier swords - I think I'll probably end up being a long term Albion customer:-) (No, they aren't paying me to say this:-)

Many thanks again for your info Chad - now I just have to try not to go NUTS waiting for my Solingen - and ALSO try to resist the urge to totally max out my credit card and buy the SAINT MAURICE right now as well (which is the other rather amazing sword I was considering when I *finally* managed to settle on the Solingen...

I've got a nasty feeling that that museum line is going to continue to expand and I'm going to be getting these urges quite a bit:-)

I can also feel a fairly major BOOKING BUYING FRENZY coming on:-) I noticed the Royal Armouries have Manuscript I.33 as a 160 page book now - with full English translation/etc. - and a companion book explaining the fighting techniques/style blow by blow - sort of a 'longsword and buckler for dummies' - not to mention the Oakshott book on Mediaeval swords - I've just put in my order for all three:-)

John.

[Jonathan Blair]

[Chad Arnow]

[Jonathan Hopkins]

John,
Congratulations on your new purchase! I, too, lurk on myArmoury (and post occasionally). I feel the same about Medieval European swords--I want one, but doubt I will be able to afford a period example. I am a bit of an antiques snob, but nevertheless, I am considering selling some of my collection (18th C. wakizashi, WWII Japanese NCO Sword, and possible others) to finance an Albion purchase. I really like the Solingen--great choice. If I could splurge on a Museum Line sword, it would be the Tritonia--it just looks wicked!

I think you will find myArmoury to be a great resource for your interest in Medieval swords. You will be a great resource for people who occasionally chime in with questions about small-swords and military pattern swords--I find that those threads are where I can offer some insights.

The most exciting aspects of myArmoury, besides very focused, interesting threads, are the features, albums, and bookstore. Scanning through the bibliography really increased the size of my already large wishlist. You should consider sharing some photos of your fantastic small-sword collection in the albums section and/or the forums (and your other 17th and 18th century swords!).

It's nice to see another SFI Antiques & Military regular over here on myArmoury. And once again--great sword! I can't wait to hear about your thoughts once it is in hand!

Best Regards,
Jonathan

[John Oliver]

Many thanks for that Chad - and thanks to you too Jonathan! (nice to see another SFI face over here too!:-)

I have been 'lurking' for a while now - looking at reviews/etc. - but now I've finally taken the plunge:-)

So far I've found the people to be *excellent* - there are some incredibly knowledgeable chaps here and they have been enormously helpful - I was really agonizing over that first purchase/decision...

I'll be honest with you though - I am *sure* I'll end up going for the SAINT MAURICE as well - there is just something about the look of that sword - powerful - a real *presence* - not that I've held it in my hand or anything but I have handled a lot of swords in my time and lets just say the sword 'speaks to me':-)

Like you've said, I'm more than happy to share what little I may know/may have picked up along the way about; smallswords, baskethilted broadswords, British military pattern swords and so on - I even know a little about Third Reich edged weapons too:-) NOW I have an entirely NEW area to focus on:-) MEDIAEVAL SWORDS:-)

BTW - Chad mentioned BOOKS: Here is what I've decided to START WITH/have just ordered from the Royal Armouries in Leeds:

* The Medieval Art of Swordsmanship (I.33 in German plus translation in English and facsimile of the original)
* Medieval Sword and Shield (companion book/manual that breaks it down into 'lessons')
* Records of the Medieval Sword (the Oakshott book).

I think I've probably made a reasonable start (?) As soon as I get my Solingen I want to start some basic training - and I thought I.33 would be a good place to start...

I'm thinking I might start looking around to see if there is anyone out there who makes a decent BUCKLER of the type found in I.33...

John.

PS You mentioned booklists Jonathan - think I'd better add a few of my recommendations for people...

[John Oliver]

Hi again all,

Just a quick message to let you all know SHE'S ARRIVED: I'm now the proud owner of the SOLINGEN by Albion:-)

Lets just say I'm IMPRESSED:-) What a sword this is to hold in the hand - the balance/feel/harmonics of the sword - exceptional - the more I handle this magnificent weapon the more I realise what a *masterpiece* the original must be...

I found a couple of tiny things that weren't 100% up to my expectations - a couple of spots on the edges of the pommel where there were bits that should have been polished out and the last 4 inches of foible (up to the point) deviates from true about 1 mm (which I'm guessing might have happened in the final tempering...

I'm probably being a bit picky here though because I'm used to handling mostly original period pieces of very high quality and these are the standards I'm applying in my appraisal of the Solingen...

Bottom line: Money well spent:-) I am convinced that if I was to handle the original and then handle this reproduction there would not be a significant difference in terms of handling characteristics:-)

Now I have the sword (and a suitable buckler) its time to hit the I.33 manuscript and companion workbook in earnest (don't worry folks, I have a wooden waster and leather buckler on the way too - don't want to start off by taking a chunk out of an arm or wrist...:-)

I'll try to do some pictures soon but there are already so many good pictures of the Solingen on the Albion website and on this one anyway...

I think what the guys at Albion have achieved with this sword is quite amazing - because I'm a *very* fussy person when it comes to my antique swords and the slightest problem tends to bug me - but they have STILL managed to impress me...

One thing that is REALLY BAD though is THIS: I'm at *work* and my baby isn't here with me - I'm going to have to wait for HOURS to get back to her and have another play...:-)

Oh well - next I have to start saving for the SAINT MAURICE - not to mention one of those special historical scabbards for the Solingen:-)

John.

[Peter Johnsson]

John,

I am very happy to hear that your sword has arrived and that you are happy with it.

It is less satisfactory to learn that you have a few issues you are not completely happy with.
If the blade has a slight sideways set, it can easily be adressed. Either, send it back to Albion and they will make sure the blade is adjusted. You can also do this yourself if you are familiar with the use of a propane torch. It takes careful monitoring of the temperature, as you need to get the part that is to be straightened up to yellow with a *slight* bronze tinge but *not* beyond that. If you heat too much, it will affect edge holding and temper. Go real slow and careful. It will seem like nothing happens at first, but then temperature will seem to want to rush through brown to blue.

In some cases blades can resume some slight set even after having been straightened during heat treat. I have experienced this sometimes in my own blades: after some time they are no longer straight, but need some more attention. A slight tweaking is all it takes to brought back to straight. It should *not* be done cold, but with a gentle heating. (If you try to straighten a blade cold, you will have to severely stress the blade, if it is even at all possible) After this last tweaking, there is very rarely any further problems.
It is not that difficult to do, but does require care and attention.

Brush the flame over the section that is to be heated and keep the mere tip of the flame moving along the spine of the blade. I always mark the bent section and make sure the apex of the curve is clearly noted. When the blade is hot It can sometimes be difficult to see the exact shape and extent of the bend. Make sure you avoid touching the flame to the edges of the blade, as they will take heat much quicker than the centre section. If you keep the flame at a distance, so that only the tip of the flame touches the blade, the heat will "bleed" into the steel evenly. The feeling is like applying watercolor on a very delicate surface, or gently touching the cheek of your loved one with a feather. Keep the flame in motion. Never stop at one place. Also turn the blade over so you heat both sides.
Make sure you have good light to see by, that the blade surface is thoroughly de-greased and cleaned, and look carefully for any slight shift of color from steely white to the first traces of yellow. When this happens, you are close to final temperature, and only need to continue a little while more: keep at it with an even gentler touch and watch as the color slowly deepens into a golden yellow. Then stop heating.
To go slowly is of paramount importance.
Also make sure you have a tub of water close by, so you can do a quick quench, should things go badly and you mis-judge the amount of heat you apply. Make sure the part that might need cooling actually fits below the surface of the water.

The straightening itself is done by placing two wooden blocks on a table and pressing down with a third. You hold the sword by the hilt and place the heated portion that is to be straightened between the blocks on the table. You then press down with the third dowel a little past straigh and gradually ease the bend out of the blade. Start easy and rather push gently many times, than forcefully once. You need to make sure you work only while the blade is still hot. Perhaps you need to gently reheat the blade before you get it completely straight. You can plunge the blade in water when it has become stright, if you like, or leave it hanging to cool in air.
The wood will be a little blackened by the heat of the blade, but the steel will not be marred by the wood. Afterwards you just remove the faint yellow tinge with some vinegar on a sponge, clean with hot soap water, dry thoroughly and apply oil: the blade is now good and true.

Regarding slight spots on the hilt furniture: This is something that is seen differently depending on ones preferences.
Personally I am quite happy that there sometimes are a few small slight spots here and there on the hilt furniture, as these minute specks look like remaining marks from forging scale that has not been completely filed away. It is something you can see on well preserved originals at times. To me this side effect from the manufacture process actually adds to the feeling of authenticity in these peices. We are naturally talking about marks that are quite small, like pin pricks or pin heads.

The Solingen sword I made for Albion to be used as prototype and comparison in the workshop, actually has a small forging mark on the pommel (a small black speck in the middle of the front face). I was rather happy with this little mark as it is just the type of thing you see on originals at times.
I do know and can respect that some customers want to see their newly made swords completely spotless and shiny all over. It is a matter of personal taste and preference. If it is an issue for you, I recommend you send the sword back to Albion to have it adressed: the sword should fulfill your expectations, no less.

I hope you will get much enjoyment and satifaction out of your Solingen. To me it is one of these special swords that stand out from the rest, not least because it is at first glance a humble weapon, but one that rewards you as time goes by.
The original is stunning, but a little worn by rust. To make a reconstruction of a no nonsense weapon of high quality like this was a rich learning experience for me. It is great to know that other enthusiasts has the opportunity to get to know this sword through the Museum Line version.

[John Oliver]

Hi Peter!

Many thanks for that...

Re: Straightening the blade: I think I'd be way too nervous to try something like the process you've described on my own - but after Christmas/New Year I might just follow your advice and send it back for that minor straightening - either that or learn to live with it as is because sending any sort of weapon into and out of Australia nowadays is just not such a straightforward matter anymore - they are making it more difficult/stressful/problematic all the time (the government)...

Once I *do* get something in without customs/quarantine/customs agents/other 'stuff' I'm usually pretty reluctant to send it back out of Australia again unless its something major... (Thats why I told the guys to 'double and triple check' my Solingen out before sending her...:-)

Re: the marks/pitting on the pommel - yes, I agree with you - I'm not desperately worried about that at all - there is one small 'crater' in the pommel that would only be about 1 mm or so across and there is some deep scratching for about 1 cm or so around one part of the edge that probably should have been polished out I'm thinking... (I don't have the sword here with me at work so I'm not sure on the exact length of the scratching...)

Apart from this the sword really *is* stunning - to look at it appears (at first) to be a very simple and plain weapon - but the real elegance of this weapon is in its balance/performance/handling characteristics - whoever made the original MUST have had an extremely advanced knowledge of things like mass distribution, harmonics (nodes and suchlike) and I guess would have either been a pretty good swordsman himself and/or have been basing his design on a pattern of sword that had been perfected over centuries through substantial trial and error (and loss of life and limb)...

Whilst this sword *looks* simple it is really a VERY SOPHISTICATED WEAPON and from the bit of handling/practice I've had so far I can tell that it will *definitely* take time for me to master - its not something that I will manage 'overnight'...

I'm glad I've got *both* the I.33 manuscript AND the workbook by Paul Wagner/Stephen Hand/etc. - I'd have to be a MUCH more skilled swordsman than I am to be able to 'fill in the gaps' otherwise...

I really want to do justice to this amazing sword by learning how to use it PROPERLY - the way it would have been used back in the 1280s or so... (Bottom line: I will probably get to some level of 'mastery' after about 5 or 10 years:-)

John.

PS Peter - what you and Albion have done with this museum line is really special - you've made exact copies of some of the best quality mediaeval swords available to people like me to be able to study/practice with and enjoy - when to purchase the ORIGINAL would be either impossible or prohibitively expensive - or BOTH...:-) I CAN'T WAIT to get my hands on the SAINT MAURICE and one day, once I've got a bit of money saved, I am *definitely* going to ask you to make a sword for me:-)

[Greg Griggs]

Hello John,
Congrats on your Solingen purchase, I know you'll have many hours of pleasure with such a fine blade. I think that for what you want to use it for, the Solingen was your best bet before getting the St. Maurice. You will see what I mean when you purchase that wonderful beast of a sword.:}

Have to give many kudos to Peter for his design work on these blades and for his quick response to your quality questions. It's good to see people in this business who care for the product they give us - because most of us are not your normal run-of-the-mill consumer, and when we ask for top of the line, we expect to receive it. We ask for an experience , not just some pieces of metal thrown together in some form to resemble a sword-like object. Also, by sharing the knowledge in his post about straightening the set, the experience is broadened. Thanks Peter - I'm adding that one to my library.

Just a few thoughts from someone sharing your thrill at a new beautiful blade. Congrats again, and HAVE FUN!

-Greg

[Jean Thibodeau]

[John Oliver]

Thanks Greg and Jean!:-)

Thanks for your feedback, kind wishes and advice...

You're right Greg - this is SO MUCH MORE than a 'piece of steel' to me...

Its something I find very hard to put into words really - but its something I have always felt - there is something about a fine sword that sets it apart from anything else I can think of:-)

Anyway - its 3am - another night shift is over and the single malt whiskey is excellent:-)

John.

[Florian H.]

Good evening, everyone!
Well, since I own a Solingen too, I can perfectly empathize with you. It really is one very aesthetic work of art, whether one likes swords or not. Although it is of course annoying that such minor flaws often spoil that fantastic feeling when you lift it out of the box, I would not worry too much about it. I think some skilled craftsman like a locksmith or a knife maker should be able to help you out.
Nevertheless I wish you a good time with your new sword. I'm sure you will have it.
I have to agree with Greg. Many, many thanks to Peter Johnsson for providing his skill as an artist. I haven't found anyone yet whose work appeals more to me than his. I'm not saying that will never happen, but as yet that's the case.
The Solingen really is one special sword, to me and I hope to you too, John.
So far my best regards and good evening everyone!

[Patrick Kelly]

One thing I'd like to point out is this: Peter didn't make these swords. Yes, he designed and built the prototypes but after that they're out of his hands. I consider Peter to be a personal friend and I own an example of his own work which is precious to me. He is one of the finest smiths working today and perhaps the best individual smith working in the medieval era. I will be the first say that we all owe much to Peters drive and creativity. However, none of you own a sword by Peter Johnsson. There is a distinct difference between a PJ sword and an Albion. They're both first quality examples of what they are but they have a very different character. You happen to own fine recreations designed by Peter Johnsson and manufacture by quite a few skilled artisans who work at Albion. Peter recently related to me that he views Albion swords as a child that has grown up and now possesses its own identity. I think thats a very apt description. Let's give credit where credit is due. While Peter is a major part of that particular process he's far from the only component.

[Florian H.]

Well, Patrick, I know that. I just already complimented the Crew at Albion on the fine job they did with my sword but did not so to Peter Johnsson. And since Greg brought this up I felt this was the right moment to let Peter know how much I love this sword since he also has something to do with me holding it in my hands.
So since one wouldn't be possible without the other I think both, Peter and Albion achieved a very fine result with this collaboration and I just wanted them to know my opinion about their work.
Best, Florian

[Patrick Kelly]

[Florian H.]

I'm sorry! I didn't intend to sound huffy or offensive in any way! I didn't take this personal in any way.
So, have a nice day everyone
Best regards, Florian