Need Advise on Sword buying -- myArmoury.com

Marcus G. · Posted: Tue 06 Jan, 2004 4:27 pm Post subject: Need Advise on Sword buying

I am 17 years old, I have become very interested on swords over the past year. I have read a good deal about them and now would like to buy one. I looked at albion and angus trim, but they were a little pricey for me and i didn't feel that with my lack of Martial Arts experience, i really needed a top cutting sword. I would like to have a historically accurate model with accurate weight and balance. I would'nt be frequently using the the sword (except for the occasional backyard test cutting.) I would like the peice to be as historically accurate as possible. I was looking on Museum Replicas Limited homepage and found two particular swords very appealing. Both of which are large, German, flambart greatswords. I see that the founder of MRL is a respected sword collecor who is involved whith the HACA. Does this have anything to do with the quality of the MRL? I was wondering if anyone here has bought from them in the past (particularly the Two Handed Flamberge or the Fighting Two-Hand Sword) I read the reviews of the other MRL swords and the quality seemed good( for the pirce), but are they heat tempered or heat treated in any way? Can they be used for test cutting? I read that MRL swords come with a dull edge that isnt very sharp. How hard would it be to sharpen a "flame bladed" wavy sword such as this? Thx for any replies or suggestions.

P.S. I am about 6ft tall and 160lbs the sword is advertised at a weight of 6lbs. I am reletively strong, but i know that 6lbs is pretty heavy for a sword. Should I consider something lighter.

James Byrnes · Posted: Tue 06 Jan, 2004 5:01 pm Post subject: Hi Marcus

Hi Marcus,

Welcome to the wonderful hobby! I would say , my first question for you to ask yourself, is beyond your initial desire to own a nice sword (can't fault you there) what do you intend to do with with it? You say you won't plan on test cutting much, but then mention you want to be able to test cut. Are you looking for a sword to learn martial arts with? Are your interests those of the collector? Either path is fascinating, and there is a great deal of crossover between the two.

Regarding the MRL Bidenhander, aesthetically I prefer the Two Hand Flamberge, as opposed to the Fighting Two Hander.
Tom Leoni, a well respected researcher and WMA practitioner owns the Two Handed Flamberge and gave it generally satisfactory marks for quality and value. I have to admit, I have been more then tempted to buy one myself. The blades are heat treated, though quality control is known to be spotty, so I would recommend ordering it non sharpened at first (they do not accept returns on sharpened blades) and if the quality is up to your standards, then you could contact them about having it sharpened. I would not recommend attempting to sharpen the blade yourself, setting the correct edge bevel (angle of the edge) determines a lot in the performance of a blade, and a flambard blade presents a unique set of problems (though I admit I have never sharpened one myself).

The ARMA affiliation is a non-entity as regards the quality of the blades. YOu either get a good one, or you return it.

I hope I have provided some assistance to you, and that your first sword purchase is memorable. Enjoy the journey!

James

Marcus G. · Posted: Tue 06 Jan, 2004 6:03 pm Post subject:

James,
Thank you very much for the advise. I think that i will try the Two Handed Flamberge as I share your view of it being the more aesthetically apealing of the two. I really like the German and swiss 2 handers with the long ricasso and secondary guard (I suppose thats not the correct name.) As far as swords, go I think they are by far the most unique and interesting.
Do Albion or Angus Trim offer any swords of similar models? How effectively would this sword cut (with the proper edge bevel and such)? I would really enjoy to use the sword for test cutting (I have an unlimited supply of extra thick cardboard tubes at my house) I don't take any martial arts classes ,yet (I am hoping to someday, but as of right now there are no western classes that I know of in my area) but a waster would probably be more effective for training than a sword. I think what im looking for is a sword that i could hang on my wall and enjoy the design (precisely why i want the flamberge. like the simple look of the one in the picture and it is just such a cool sword) then take it off and use it both for fun, and possibly for a serious martial art in the near future.
I read in another forum that the MRL guys don't always do the best job in thier sharpening. It was said that they just put on a wide secondary grind and didnt research the proper edge geometry of the sword. I wouldnt want to subject my hard earned investment to a crude and sloppy grinder. Any ideas on how i could achieve a sharp sword without the MRL sharpening service?
Thank you very much for your information.

PS-Let me take back the statement about not going to test cut very much. What I should have said was that I dont plan on doing any serious test cutting (aka helmets, half of pigs, thick peices of wood, anything that would really stess and test the blade) I would be into the lighter stuff, like pool noodles, cardboard tubes, melons, the occasional peice of past useable meat, things of that nature.

James Byrnes · Posted: Tue 06 Jan, 2004 10:10 pm Post subject: My Pleasure

Marcus,

My pleasure to offer what knowledge I have. There are quite a few people on this forum who dwarf my knowledge of swords, I hope some of them will chime in as well. AS far as the secondary guard on a Bidenhander, they are known as parrier haken or lugs, though secondary guard is a very apt description of exactly what they do (they are there to protect the hand when the blade is wielded at the half sword (ie like a short stabbing spear), and that is why many, if not most, Bidenahnders have the leather covering on the ricasso). I fully agree with you about the appeal of the Big Two Handers, but I must warn you, from all accounts I have read, they are not the best weapon to attack light targets with. Hopefully Bjorn or Peter will add to this thread, since they have both seen many period swords of this type, and they can do a much better job of explaining the edge beveling present on these pieces. At a guess, I would think that they would have a rather chisel like profile, perhaps even a secondary bevel, as the swords did not need to be razor sharp( the momentum generated by one of these must be incredible) and they would very likely be up against both pike hafts ( though I believe more so to snarl the pikes then to cleave through them) and armored foes.

As far as these two fine makers offering a reproduction or inspired piece, no , not at this time. Craig and Chris at Arms and Armor did an absolutely gorgeous version as a custom piece( you can see it under Arms and Armors "Custom" section of their website) but it is roughly six times the price of the MRL version. Something to work up to? At least that is how I view it.

Lastly regarding the suitability of these weapons for Martial Arts, I would recommend against it. There is some Renaissance Italian treatise's that deal with the two handed sword, but I am unfamiliar with how in depth they go. I work within the German School of WMA, and to my knowledge, there is no work focusing on the Bidenhander. Get yourself a good waster as you suggest for martial arts work, I personally recommend an aluminum waster, they handle truer to the feel of a real sword. Having said all this, do not let it discourage you from purchasing this sword. It is a cool sword, and I assure you, if you get the bug, it will definitely not be your last purchase Laughing Out Loud

As an aside, what part of the country do you live in? There are many people practicing WMA, it's all about getting the word out that you are interested. And if worse comes to worse, pickup some books on the subject and start working through them. It doesn't beat hands on instruction, but it's a place to start. www.chivalrybookshelf.com is a great resource for manuals.

I hope all this helps and I sincerely hope that your sword purchase is memorable and fun.

Best Regards,
James Byrnes

Marcus G. · Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2004 2:18 pm Post subject:

James,
Thank you once again for your help. I am also considering the angus trim longswod. It is a little more than the bidenhander, but it may be far more useful in test cutting (as i have no large targets, nor the resourses to buy any.) How effective are western swords against the mats that the japanese used to test their swords? Could I test cut those with a longsword or the German Flambard?

PS- does anybody know of any western martial arts groups, or classes in St Louis?

James Byrnes · Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2004 3:22 pm Post subject: Atrims Excell

Marcus,

Gus' blades excel at mat cutting, what will be harder is cutting with no real training. I have never attempted to cut a mat with a Bidenhander, so I cannot speak as to their effectiveness or lack thereof. Mat cutting, while fun, should be just one tool in your training regimen, and a latter one at that. Start out first with learning the guards and the cutting motion with your waster. Practice, practice and then practice some more! Once you have had some instruction, then try your hand at mat cutting. Milk jugs provide a cheap and plentiful cutting medium that is far more forgiving of errors in technique when you are first starting out. Speaking of instruction, Allen Reed and the Gallowglass Academy are hosting a longsword seminar taught by Greg Mele (co founder and head of curriculum at [url]http://www.Chicago Sword Play Guild.com[/url]) on Feb. 1. Here is the link to this event: http://www.gallowglassacademy.org/Gallowglass...gsword-csg I believe the event is out by Rockford, Illinois so it is a bit of a day trip, but well worth it. Greg is a great instructor. Again, hope I have been able to help out, good luck in your training.

James

Sean Flynt · Posted: Thu 08 Jan, 2004 11:14 am Post subject:

Keep in mind that you're not stuck with the piece forever once you've bought it. I've sold all the items in my collection that I no longer wanted, or wanted less compared to something else. I learned something from all of them, sold them through Sword Forum classifieds and upgraded/refined my remaining collection with the proceeds. I bet most of the folks here have done the same. Tastes and interests change, not to mention budgets....

Marcus G. · Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2004 10:07 pm Post subject:

Thx guys, I think I will try the Bidenhander. One more question. What kind of oil should i use on the blade,? What other sword care products do you recommend and where do i get them?

Patrick Kelly · Posted: Fri 09 Jan, 2004 10:57 pm Post subject:

Sean Flynt · Posted: Sat 10 Jan, 2004 8:28 am Post subject:

MRL weapons are coated with an extremely tough lacquer. If you don't sharpen your sword, you won't need to oil it. If you do sharpen it, I'd recommend strippng the lacquer from the entire blade FIRST. Otherwise you'll be able to see where the unlacquered steel on the sharpened edge meets the lacquered portions of the blade, especially after test cutting/sharpening has scratched up the lacquer. Stripping the lacquer will involve your hands moving quickly up and down the blade with sandpaper/steel wool/etc., and sharp edges complicate that process. Wear gardening gloves or gauntlets. I once thought I was being extra-careful in this process and still wound up ripping open a finger. Getting the lacquer off of MRL pieces is tough even with plain, short blades. Prepare to spend a lot of quality time with that big flamberge. I'd recommend a sanding sponge.
Some folks use gun cloths to keep swords protected from corrosion.

Marcus G. · Posted: Sat 10 Jan, 2004 9:57 am Post subject:

Thx for the advice Sean. Should I sand it parallel to the swords edges, or would a circular motion work alright? You seem to be somebody who has had some experience with MRL, how long does it usually take for their products to arrive? (weeks? Months?) I have seen some of the higher end sword manuractureres that have a wait of about 4 months or more. How long should i expect to wait for my sword?

Sean Flynt · Posted: Sat 10 Jan, 2004 6:18 pm Post subject:

Since I use relatively coarse sandpaper to get the stuff off quickly, I try to keep the strokes very straight and parallel to the edges. Circular scratches or scratches at right angles to the edge tend to STAND out, and they're tougher to SAND out. If you decide to go the sandpaper route and want a nice, smooth polish, you'll have to use progressively finer paper/steel wool/polishing cloths. I antique all my MRL blades, so I don't mind scratches and satin finish. I highly recommend sanding sponges. One forum regular has had success with a combination of Citrustrip and sanding, but I found it to be very messy and not much better than dry sanding.

Well, except for backordered items, I've always gotten my MRL items within about 1 week of ordering. Got one order either the next day or two days after ordering-I don't recall which. Consider, however, that I live in Birmingham, Alabama, which is a large city only about a four hour drive from MRL, and which has a major airport. I don't know if MRL's stuff is trucked or flown by UPS, but I win either way. I would guess that big-city-to-big-city delivery times wouldn't be too much different. I recently shipped a sword to California via UPS, and it took about 10 days to arrive, including one weekend. I don't know if the size of the package will make a difference.
Good luck!

Marcus G. · Posted: Thu 15 Jan, 2004 12:49 pm Post subject:

Hey guys my new MRL bidenhander has arrived. Its pretty cool, but the one thing that I notice it that the blade is really flexible. It moves wiggles a lot when I thrust in the air, or shake the hilt. I new that swords were supposed to be flexible, but it it wiggles and flexes a lot wouldn't it be hard to thrust. Are the original bidehanders this wiggly? I saw a thread on sword forum about this same issue but I would like to try it here as well.

Kenneth Enroth · Posted: Thu 15 Jan, 2004 1:56 pm Post subject:

Sell the MRL piece and save up for a top quality sword. It sounds like your level of interest demands it.

Jeff Johnson · Posted: Thu 15 Jan, 2004 4:18 pm Post subject:

Allan Senefelder · Industry Professional

Marcus, this is based on nothing more or less than my expierience but when it comes to
quality blades you get what you pay for for the most part . If you want something that you can
feel confident about both quailty of appearence and function you will have to pay for it .
There's a reason folks like Gus, A&A and Albion and the other manufacturers your seeing mentioned here
on myArmoury alot cost a bit more . MRL is a hit and miss sort of a thing from one blade to the next .
That is not the case with the makers aforementioned .