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Sean Belair
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Aug, 2006 6:03 pm    Post subject: Alternative scabbard wraps         Reply with quote

Is their any evidence of scabbards being covered in anything other than leather, and how common? I know Okeshott’s records of the medieval sword shows a scabbard wrapped in velvet. My curiosity is spiked by the number of off white scabbards I see represented in art, micejoweski bible, beheading of john the Baptist (in the MET). Also I was looking at some tomb effigies that have intricate patterns covering the scabbards; it would seem to me that linen would be a better choice than leather as it can be painted or stitched with the patterns.

thanks,
Sean Belair
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Aug, 2006 7:08 am    Post subject: Re: Alternative scabbard wraps         Reply with quote

Sean Belair wrote:
Is their any evidence of scabbards being covered in anything other than leather, and how common? I know Okeshott’s records of the medieval sword shows a scabbard wrapped in velvet. My curiosity is spiked by the number of off white scabbards I see represented in art, micejoweski bible, beheading of john the Baptist (in the MET). Also I was looking at some tomb effigies that have intricate patterns covering the scabbards; it would seem to me that linen would be a better choice than leather as it can be painted or stitched with the patterns.

thanks,
Sean Belair


From what I understand having a cloth covering on scabbards may have been pretty common (although it is hard to say for sure since there are few extant originals left). However that is not typically done much today, in my case at least for two reasons.

1) Customers seem to want leather
2) Modern textiles are substantially different then ancient textiles thus causing accuracy to be an issue. Typically for someone interested in a textile covered scabbard accuracy is also a big deal.

Of course if that isn't an issue for someone I'd be glad to try it... Happy

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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Wed 09 Aug, 2006 7:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have one reference to a surviving medieval scabbard as being covered in "parchment". That piece has elaborate painted decoration. Parchment is still leather, of course, but it's extremely thin--translucent, even. The cheapest chamois (see automotive dept. of any big-box store) isn't quite that thin, but still very thin. You might find a large chamois that would cover some scabbards. Canvas might be appropriate. It was used on some shields and certainly takes paint well.

In the 18th century, military belts and other strapping often were commonly whitened with pipeclay. No reason that couldn't have been done earlier as well, and with all kinds of leather. Leather is as easily painted as any porous surface. See The Book of Kells, for example. You won't see any scabbard as elaborately painted as that cultural treasure.


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Wed 09 Aug, 2006 7:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Aug, 2006 7:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The advantage of linnen is that it's also very stiff and durable, giving a better construction then f.e. wool. From the iron age I know examples where this was used. The linnen was glued on using hideglue, and coated with wax to make it waterproof. Using casein based paints, the scabbards can be given bright colors, like this reconstructed example (source: http://www.noricum.de):
http://www.noricum.de/Schwert_Mindelheim_gross.jpg
If it worked in the iron age, it could have worked in the medieval period as well.

I also sometimes see swords with a cover of hair-on-hides. Is there any evidence this was actually done? I do know that scabbards were from time to time lined on the inside with either textile or hair-on-hides. This gives a much more snug fit of the blade, makes it much easier to pull the blade out or insert it and in case of wool or sheep skin, helps protect the blade against rust (fat from the wool). I've applied both on a knife and dagger scabbard, and I much prefer it over bare wood on the inside.
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Geoff Wood




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PostPosted: Wed 09 Aug, 2006 7:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote:

I also sometimes see swords with a cover of hair-on-hides. Is there any evidence this was actually done?.


I vaguely remember seeing a reference to it in a book. It may have been Ellis Davidson, but I'm not sure (I borrowed it from the library), and in any case I don't know what her original source would have been. If you applied the hide so that the hairs pointed down, it may have been a practical addition to the rain shedding properties of a scabbard (but that is just speculation) or it may have been decorative??
Geoff
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Al Muckart




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PostPosted: Thu 10 Aug, 2006 1:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Sean,

Sean Flynt wrote:
I have one reference to a surviving medieval scabbard as being covered in "parchment". That piece has elaborate painted decoration. Parchment is still leather, of course, but it's extremely thin--translucent, even. The cheapest chamois (see automotive dept. of any big-box store) isn't quite that thin, but still very thin. You might find a large chamois that would cover some scabbards. Canvas might be appropriate. It was used on some shields and certainly takes paint well.


Minor quibble, parchment isn't leather because it isn't tanned, it's a treated hide as is chamois -- which is a brain/oil tanned hide. To digress a bit, the big difference between chamois and other hide treatments is that chamois is completely water resistant in that water doesn't change it's properties at all. Real chamois is very hard to find these days though. In practical terms the differences are that parchment (which comes from goats) and vellum (usually from calves) take inks and paints better, tanned leather takes paint but also takes dyes which don't work quite as well on parchment, and chamois is immune to a lot of things. To make a highly color-decorated scabbard parchment or vellum would be perfect, assuming you could find a skin big enough. For a longsword you'd probably have to lay out the pattern diagonally which would be awfully wasteful.

In all of the objects I have seen records of, and the information from period on tanning and dyeing leather I have read, leather in period was dyed by the hide, and subsequent color decoration was done with paints, not dyes. Just something to consider.

IIRC archaeology of weapons notes the scabbard of the sword of St Maurice of Turin as being covered in parchment. I don't have a copy in front of me though. I also seem to recall that the scabbard for the sword of Can Grande della Scala was covered in velvet, but that's a bit vague and I don't have the book in front of me.

In case anyone is interested in getting parchment or really good calf leathers L.J Hewit & Son (with whom I have no affiliation) are a pleasure to deal with. They are a supplier to the restoration bookbinding trade so their products are very high quality. I bought an alum tawed goatskin from them to make some shoes and really want to get some of their calfskin to do a scabbard or two with.

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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Thu 10 Aug, 2006 4:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Al Muckart wrote:
...IIRC archaeology of weapons notes the scabbard of the sword of St Maurice of Turin as being covered in parchment. I don't have a copy in front of me though. I also seem to recall that the scabbard for the sword of Can Grande della Scala was covered in velvet, but that's a bit vague and I don't have the book in front of me.

Al, you have an excellent, but not quite perfect memory.
- Oakeshott says the St Maurice of Turin scabbard is covered in vellum (See pg 241 of Archaeology of Weapons {Dover edition, in case the pagination varies}), and,
- the scabbard of the Can Grande della Scala sword is covered in red velvet (see pg 307 of the same reference)

"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Al Muckart




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PostPosted: Thu 10 Aug, 2006 5:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steve Grisetti wrote:

Al, you have an excellent, but not quite perfect memory.
- Oakeshott says the St Maurice of Turin scabbard is covered in vellum (See pg 241 of Archaeology of Weapons {Dover edition, in case the pagination varies}), and,
- the scabbard of the Can Grande della Scala sword is covered in red velvet (see pg 307 of the same reference)


Thanks Steve. Big Grin

Now I'm wondering whether there is anything under the velvet on that scabbard to aid the structural integrity Question Scabbard cores seemed to be really thin, enough so that a covering of something fairly stiff like period pit-tanned leather (which is much 'harder' that modern veg tannages) or vellum would contribute quite a lot to the strength of the whole thing.

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Al.
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Thu 10 Aug, 2006 5:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Al Muckart wrote:
...Now I'm wondering whether there is anything under the velvet on that scabbard to aid the structural integrity Question Scabbard cores seemed to be really thin, enough so that a covering of something fairly stiff like period pit-tanned leather (which is much 'harder' that modern veg tannages) or vellum would contribute quite a lot to the strength of the whole thing.

Oakeshott provides a photo of the Can Grande della Scala sword/scabbard in Plate 17 of AOW. For what its worth, that photo shows that the blade and scabbard appear to be broken perhaps 5-6 inches from the cross, so maybe that demonstrates a structural weakness, but who knows?

"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Thu 10 Aug, 2006 9:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Purely as a method of construction using traditional materials, linen, wood, and hide glue would be a very good natural composite way of completing a thin wood core. Medieval glues (hide and fish skin glues) were not as good at glueing wood to wood as they were at glueing cloth, leather, and other dissimaler materials to wood. Glueing linen to the limbs with hide glue is still practiced as an effective method of backing a self made bow.

One theory of period scabbad construction (Peter Johnson?) is that thin slats were bent, possibly following steaming, around a blade. They might have been constrained with wire holding the slats in an oval profile around the blade. To secure them as a structurally sound core, the slats would really need to be glued. As was the case of strengthening bows with linen backing, glueing cloth to the wood slats, particularly in a process involving some steaming, would have been an optimum technology composite of medieval period for creating a light but strong scabbard core.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Al Muckart




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PostPosted: Thu 10 Aug, 2006 10:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Jared,

Jared Smith wrote:
Purely as a method of construction using traditional materials, linen, wood, and hide glue would be a very good natural composite way of completing a thin wood core. Medieval glues (hide and fish skin glues) were not as good at glueing wood to wood as they were at glueing cloth, leather, and other dissimaler materials to wood. Glueing linen to the limbs with hide glue is still practiced as an effective method of backing a self made bow.


Funny you should mention that, once my hide glue arrives I'm going to try exactly that. I'm not sure that they weren't as good as glueing wood to wood though. I've used some in a couple of projects and it's scary effective at holding wood together. That said, it's a bit of a dog to glue up a the glueing margin of a scabbard without getting any in the blade cavity. I asked about wrapping cores together rather than gluing them in an earlier thread after my experiences trying to do that but I've just had an idea about how to make it work without making a big mess.

Quote:
One theory of period scabbad construction (Peter Johnson?) is that thin slats were bent, possibly following steaming, around a blade. They might have been constrained with wire holding the slats in an oval profile around the blade. To secure them as a structurally sound core, the slats would really need to be glued. As was the case of strengthening bows with linen backing, glueing cloth to the wood slats, particularly in a process involving some steaming, would have been an optimum technology composite of medieval period for creating a light but strong scabbard core.


Another thing I'm going to try soon Happy I need to get some more ash, or perhaps hazel if I can get it, but I've got a friend's quasi-gothic longsword I've regripped and am building a scabbard for. I have a feeling it is going to result in too small a glueing margin to glue the slats together cleanly and that wrapping it either with linen fabric or cord is going to be the best way to hold it all together. I'll post pictures if I manage to get it to work.

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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Fri 11 Aug, 2006 12:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One of the big advantages of keeping the wooden core halves together with textile or leather is that you can make the scabbard much more narrow. With wood on wood glueing, you need an extra width to create the surface to glue the wood together. When using a wrapping, the wood edges just needs to touch together. This way you can make the wood very thin as well, resulting in a very lightweight, yet still very strong scabbard. The glued on linnen is basically the forerunner of fiber reinforced plastics used in modern technology Happy

An answer to the velvet covered scabbards, they may have had a fabric or leather wrapping first before the velvet was applied. The scabbard accompanying the sword of Godfried of Bouilllon has exactly such a construction (leather wrapping over the core, covered in velvet), although it's debated whether the scabbard is original or a later addition to the sword. You can find pictures of it here:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50498
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Geoff Wood




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PostPosted: Fri 11 Aug, 2006 3:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote:
The glued on linnen is basically the forerunner of fiber reinforced plastics used in modern technology Happy


Just as additional confirmation of the above, I've glued linen over balsa slats to make a scabbard for a gladius. Ended up with something surprisingly stiff and damage resistant. No claims whatsoever to historical accuracy of course.
Geoff
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Fri 11 Aug, 2006 10:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Al Muckart wrote:
Minor quibble, parchment isn't leather because it isn't tanned, it's a treated hide as is chamois -- which is a brain/oil tanned hide. To digress a bit, the big difference between chamois and other hide treatments is that chamois is completely water resistant in that water doesn't change it's properties at all. Real chamois is very hard to find these days though. In practical terms the differences are that parchment (which comes from goats) and vellum (usually from calves) take inks and paints better, tanned leather takes paint but also takes dyes which don't work quite as well on parchment, and chamois is immune to a lot of things. To make a highly color-decorated scabbard parchment or vellum would be perfect, assuming you could find a skin big enough. For a longsword you'd probably have to lay out the pattern diagonally which would be awfully wasteful.

In all of the objects I have seen records of, and the information from period on tanning and dyeing leather I have read, leather in period was dyed by the hide, and subsequent color decoration was done with paints, not dyes. Just something to consider.

IIRC archaeology of weapons notes the scabbard of the sword of St Maurice of Turin as being covered in parchment. I don't have a copy in front of me though. I also seem to recall that the scabbard for the sword of Can Grande della Scala was covered in velvet, but that's a bit vague and I don't have the book in front of me.

In case anyone is interested in getting parchment or really good calf leathers L.J Hewit & Son (with whom I have no affiliation) are a pleasure to deal with. They are a supplier to the restoration bookbinding trade so their products are very high quality. I bought an alum tawed goatskin from them to make some shoes and really want to get some of their calfskin to do a scabbard or two with.


the sword of Cangrande was in red velvet.

See my thread on this same website.

Red velvet still in good shape as of color, originally mounted on wood, now glued on a linen foundation by archeologists (sword is in fragments)

[/b]
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Kevin Toomey





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PostPosted: Mon 21 Aug, 2006 8:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So a true chamois is actually supposed to be brain-tanned. The ones you get today don't seem to have the same qualities as I recall. Parchment and vellum are both rawhide, or so I have assumed. Is there some further treatment?

The reason I post is mostly to add some positive support for hideglue. The only negative I can think of at the moment is its relative low resistance to moisture. In several ways it is superior to many modern adhesives. Tryed edge joints need not be clamped because it has suction that pulls the halves together. It is strong enough to keep violins together for centuries. Fish glue iirc is somewhat stronger than hide/hoof
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Al Muckart




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PostPosted: Mon 21 Aug, 2006 9:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Kevin,

Kevin Toomey wrote:
So a true chamois is actually supposed to be brain-tanned. The ones you get today don't seem to have the same qualities as I recall. Parchment and vellum are both rawhide, or so I have assumed. Is there some further treatment?


Originally, chamois was a brain/smoke tannage. Nowadays it is an oil tannage (brain tanning is basically oil/oxidation tanning) I'm not sure whether it is specifically supposed to be made from the hide of a Chamois, but I suspect that's where the name came from. I seem to recall that buff coats are made the same way, but from much much thicker hides.

I'm working from oft-repeated hearsay here, but what is sold in auto stores as "chamois" often isn't, it's a synthetic kind of cloth which isn't as strong, but is much cheaper. This may be changing now that there are more places making it again.

As far as I'm aware there isn't any tanning treatment of parchment or vellum, they are just scraped, and scraped, and scraped, and dried.

Quote:

The reason I post is mostly to add some positive support for hideglue. The only negative I can think of at the moment is its relative low resistance to moisture. In several ways it is superior to many modern adhesives. Tryed edge joints need not be clamped because it has suction that pulls the halves together. It is strong enough to keep violins together for centuries. Fish glue iirc is somewhat stronger than hide/hoof


Hide glue is fantastic stuff. The problem I had with it when I was building the scabbard for my knight was getting a tidy coat of it on thin edges and setting everything up before it gelled. I even tried heating the slats but still couldn't get it applied cleanly. Getting it onto a 4mm glueing margin without getting any in the blade cavity also eluded me Sad Recently I used it to assemble a 2 part grip core and it worked beautifully because the core pieces were small enough to fit in my oven to warm up.

Moisture isn't so much of a problem as *warm* moisture is. It still takes quite a bit to disassemble something put together with hide glue though.

As far as I'm aware there is no hoof component in hide glue.

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Sean Belair
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Sep, 2006 10:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i just found a historical account of a linnen wrap. in notker the stammerors acount of the life of charlemagne he relates that the franks covered their scabbards with waxed linnen.
unfortunatly he isnt the most reliable sorce. he admits he has not seen franks personaly.
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Marton Pap




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PostPosted: Sun 24 Sep, 2006 3:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi!
I'd like to add an extraordinary scabbard wrap: http://www.sigismundus.hu/guide/show.php?l=en&p=4_93
I'm sure most of you know this sword, but this is the first color picture I Have seen.
Here is the sword of york, an example of red velvet: http://www.sigismundus.hu/guide/show.php?l=en&p=4_41
By the way you should look around the whole site: http://www.sigismundus.hu/
Btw2: a white skabbard could have been covered by bone like this saddle: http://www.sigismundus.hu/guide/show.php?l=en&p=4_65
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Mon 25 Sep, 2006 6:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Marton Pap wrote:
....Here is the sword of york, an example of red velvet...
By the way you should look around the whole site: http://www.sigismundus.hu/....
The Sword of York is gorgeous. And the Sigismundus site looks very interesting. Thanks for the links!
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Sep, 2006 7:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steve Grisetti wrote:
The Sword of York is gorgeous. And the Sigismundus site looks very interesting. Thanks for the links!


I'll second both of those sentiments! Thanks!

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