[Eric Allen]

Just what the topic says, guys

So, I've been thinking of perhaps adding a kettle helm to my collection in the hopefully not-to-distant-future (elaboration: my mother has expressed that she might like to get me a new helmet for christmas, since my current spangenhelm is much too large and has no chinstrap or liner at all. Helpfull, since my wife has put an embargo on my purchasing any more medieval stuff for a while).
Now, I am familiar with the concept that kettle helms came in various styles, and these styles varied considerably over time and from place to place. What I am not familiar with is how they varied.

I guess more specifically: What I am looking for is information on what kettle helm styles were in vogue in the 13th and 14th centuries, and how much holdover was there to later centuries? I've been looking at various offerings from various manufacturers, but where I can judge them on aesthetic appeal (wether I like the look or not), I've found that I lack the ability to assess wether it would "fit in" with my timeperiod-of-interest, so to speak.
GDFB has several kettle helms all advertised as "15th century," how distinctive is the 15th century style from the 14th? the 13th? How distinctive of Italy is their Italian c1460 kettle helm (would that style be found elsewhere? at other times?)?
Manning Imperial offers three (well, four but two of them appear identical except for the finish), all advertised as from the 13th C. Two of them, the "basic" and the "plain" are claimed to be based off the Maciejowski Bible. I've checked, and found examples of both in the Maciej. (as well as a few other styles), but might these styles hold over to the 14th century? How distinctive is their Swiss kettle helm of 13th C. Switzerland? (would these helms be ok even without a suspension liner, as well?)
The Kingdom of Heaven "English War Hat" looks... ok, I guess... is it actually a suitable design for the late-12th C. when the movie is supposed to take place, or even the 13th or 14th century? Can I go ahead and classify this as "standard hollywood?"
the Mercenary's Tailor has a couple offerings as well. The Prato model says it is appropriate for the 14th-15th century, but what about the "chapel de fer"? I don't recall ever seeing the cheek-plates in period artwork, I take it those are purely there for modern reenactment purposes?

I realize this is a lot to ask, but I really want to know

[Chad Arnow]

You might page through the Maciejowski Bible. It was illustrated c. 1250. There are plenty of examples of Kettle Helms there.

[Jonathon Janusz]

As far as I know, following trends in manufacture, the later in time you go, the further from the spangen-style construction you get until in the end the skull and brim are raised from a single piece of steel. Keep an eye toward the stylistic lines in civilian fashion for each respective time period to judge if a particular example would be early, contemporary, or late as a rule of thumb.

You chose a helmet style that has stood one of the longest tests of time among all the styles of helmet, so I think you have a bit more wiggle room than many other kinds of gear as to slipping somethng earlier in style in a later period and being justfiable; just keep in mind when the changes in construction methods occurred to keep from jumping ahead of your chosen period. In your case, to stay with something that wouldn't be unique or too far into the future, stay away from the single-piece styles. Avoid going too early (unless you are going for a hand-me-down kind of impression) by passing on those that are the most "conical spangen helm like" in design - if that makes any sense.

Lastly, I really have to make note that 13th - 14th century is a huge span in armour design (this is when armour styles started to change rapidly, in some cases with a decade or less between transitions); a more focused time period - say, give us a specific decade or if not that a battle happening at the time will do - would help give far better advice.

Interestingly, a rudimentary sallet pulls itself very nicely out of roughly the same forming process as a single-piece kettle hat. . . if you are aiming at the tail end of the 14th century.

Hope this little brain dump helps

[Eric Allen]

Hmm, yeah, I did leave that a little too open, didn't I. Alright, let's trim down the fat a bit.

So, I guess really what I'm searching for is a replica helm suitable for a less-financially-well-off man-at-arms for the latest 13th to the early 14th century. No later than about 1350, so around the Battle of Crecy or earlier.
Basically, what would a guard or militaman standing on the town wall armed with a spear, shield, maybe a mace or sword and perhaps a gambeson if he could afford it, likely have on his head.

Now, besides the more specific questions about the products in the first post:
I'm starting to get a grasp on the mid-13th C. (the Maciejowski Bible timeframe) and what would be appropriate in that regard. Would these designs still be in service by 1300? 1325? 1350? How early might a 15th century design like the GDFB designs be expected? 1350? 1375? Not at all until the 1400s?

I've found paintings, images, and drawings of kettle helms, but not really any reproductions I can definatively nail down.

[C.L. Miller]

I would personally be very grateful to anyone who could provide images of surviving kettle helms from the 13th century, or point me in the direction of museums where they might be housed. While later kettle helms are easy to come by, I've yet to encounter an original which is thought to date from before the 14th century. Are any known? Period artwork abounds of course, but it's often a poor substitute for the real thing.

[Merv Cannon]

Hmmmmmm....let me see ......"Kettle Hats" .......Yep, I know where you can get more kettle hats than you can count, and in every style and shape imaginable. The guys in the first link below have got five pages just of Kettle Hat types ! And while your there you would do yourself a favour if you check out all the other Helms and armour. These guys IMHO have gone way beyond the usual gear that is served up to us medievalist consumers. By this I mean that manufacturers have seemed to concentrated on certain areas perhaps because they are famous ( like Churberg, etc ) and its the same with weapons and many other items. To me this is producing a kind of rehashed repeditiveness where the only variety seems to be price and quality, not that these are unimportant. Lets face it, how many Houndskull Bascinets can they make ? A good study of manuscripts will turn up a huge variety of harness and weapons, very many of which have never been reproduced !!...and I am speaking of all time periods here. take for example the humble Falchion, once a very common weapon, but it seems to be viewed as somewhat of a rarety, but in reality nothing could be further from the truth.
Another thing Id like to mention is that many people seem to forget that all but the wealthiest Baronial Knights could afford the latest "fashion" in armour. Most knights of a more humble station had to make do with the best that they could afford. They would not be in a position to refuse to use their grandfathers sword because the pommel was too round and large, etc. Have you ever seen a comparative price list of armour ? You know, one that equates the prices in todays money ! Very expensive !
Anyway, I digress as usual. My point is that there seems to be only a few Armourers making gear outside the square. Most of them seem to be in Europe and one in Australia , where medieval reenactment is huge.
"...These are a few of my favourite things !......." ........ enjoy !

http://www.bestarmour.com/helmets.htm

http://www.armabohemia.cz/

http://www.mardinus.c2000.pl/_en/oferta/helmy_pozne.php

http://www.armuredube.com/Site%20Anglais/index%20A-2.html

[Randall Moffett]

There is a fairly popular pic floating in many books on armour of one in a scandinavian museum but all my books are packed for my current move. If no one recollects the one of which I speak I will try to get more info once my move is complete (sorry that will not be till next week). It is of a spangen-like make and is dates late 13th to mid 14th from what I recall. In the 14th you do get many one piece onces but you do still get multipiece once but usually not of band and panel plates like spangens but more like a enlarged brow band with a rounded ot apexd top. The shape of the pot helms in the mid 13th on goes all over the place with the king aurthur from Monty python like top with a brim, round tops, conical, all sorts of them. Art from the time is also useful. Almost any 14th and 15th century illustration will show them fairly commonly.

A man at arms provided by the city of Lonndon in the mid 14th would be required to have a aketon, plates, bascinet or palette (perhaps a skull cap but a pot helm is just as good)., guantlets for armour plus a lance, sword and dagger as well as a shield per the Calendar of Letter Books of London.

RPM

[Daniel Staberg]

[Randall Moffett]

You are the man Daniel! Thats the one!

Thanks for finding it. I knew it was out there, thanks for finding it!

RPM