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GG Osborne





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PostPosted: Fri 18 Aug, 2006 8:55 am    Post subject: "Everyman's Dirk"         Reply with quote

I had an interested conversation with Vince Evans at the 2006 Atlanta Blade Show about the "evolution" of dirks. At Vince's display table he had two exquisite dirks (one of which insisted in leaving with me, oddly enough!!) and what is commonly called a drudgeon dagger. I commented to Vince that I would like to acquire a nice example of the latter as an early evolutionary example of the proto-dirk. Oh boy, did I ever hand Vince a line! Over the next half-hour Vince explained his view that - with due respect for Chad' excellent article herein on Scottish Dirks - dirks were more the product of particular geographical makers and local or regional styles rather than pure evolution from drudgeon to bollock to dirk. It was an interesting hypothesis and like most, the real truth is probably a mixture of both schools of thought.

This concept started me thinking. Obviously the dirks we see in major collections today are the "survivors," the artistic knives that either accidentally or purposefully were conserved in collections, etc. Now, I know from exchanging emails with Thomas MacDonald that the reserve collections in Scotland are enormous. We are all familiar with the "Dirty Dozen" in Wallace and Forman, but there have to be tons of dirks never illustrated or publically displayed.

Here is my question to the Forum' s collective brain trust: "Where are the examples of "Everyman's Dirk?" The dirks that were the work-a-day tools and common man's implements? My guess is that they were just plain daggers or long hunting knives, not what we think of as "dirks." Any ideas? What did they look like? Are there any surviving specimins? Any pictures? I'd really appreciate the help.

George

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Thomas Pludra




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PostPosted: Fri 18 Aug, 2006 10:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello, GG

Thatīs a very interesting question. I think, the reason, why there are elaborate and because of that very precious dirks are prevailing in the collections of the world, is, that those "high-end-pieces" of their time were not affordable for the average man. On the other hand, I guess, they might have been status symbols that were cared for. So those expensive dirks got the opportunity to survive in the protected households of privileged people, as the all-day-dirk of the farmer or whatsoever was ruined step by step in normal use. An example for that kind of dirk might be the dirk(handle) of the famous Rob Roy McGregor, that to my eyes seems to be more a whinger than a dirk.
A dirk that might have seen hard times in the hand of an average scotsman is to be seen in Macīs album:

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/7605.html

Iīm curious on other posts to this interesting point.
Regards
Thomas
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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Fri 18 Aug, 2006 10:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, there's one in my closet: Big Grin

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ht=dudgeon

See also this thread, in which I solicited examples to inform my own project:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ht=dudgeon

Although I imagined my dudgeon dagger as a (speculative) transitional form in order to explain away some ahistorical elements and fit it into the historical context, I think I took that slightly too far. I think you and Vince are right to be skeptical of the idea that one dagger form necessarily developed from another and replaced it. IIRC, there's a connection between the dudgeon dagger and the north of England.

I would otherwise just echo others in pointing out that workaday knives and daggers got rehilted and recycled until they were used up or lost. Collectors haven't always valued even plain swords, so ordinary tools were not likely to be preserved. Not being as subject to changing fashions or military technological advances, the common historical civilian knife forms often look pretty familiar to us.

-Sean

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GG Osborne





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PostPosted: Fri 18 Aug, 2006 3:41 pm    Post subject: Nice dirk         Reply with quote

Actually, Sean, that dirk is nothing to be even a bit apologetic for. I think you have the right idea and I whole-heartily agree that these dirks probably just got used up til they were nibs, just the same as a working knife today. I have seen the photo that Thomas shared before and its obvious antecedents are quite visible and striking, i.e. a broken sword blade and a cheaply made grip.

I wonder what else is lurking out there? What did the shepherd or yeoman farmer carry? What about the rear-ranker levy when the tribe was called out to repay some Campbell atrocity...opps my Jacobitism just slipped out there....??

GG

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2006 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: "Everyman's Dirk"         Reply with quote

GG Osborne wrote:
Over the next half-hour Vince explained his view that - with due respect for Chad' excellent article herein on Scottish Dirks - dirks were more the product of particular geographical makers and local or regional styles rather than pure evolution from drudgeon to bollock to dirk. It was an interesting hypothesis and like most, the real truth is probably a mixture of both schools of thought.

Here is my question to the Forum' s collective brain trust: "Where are the examples of "Everyman's Dirk?" The dirks that were the work-a-day tools and common man's implements? My guess is that they were just plain daggers or long hunting knives, not what we think of as "dirks." Any ideas? What did they look like? Are there any surviving specimins? Any pictures? I'd really appreciate the help.



Unfortunately, there's actually not a lot written on the topic of dirks themselves. I would think there were lots of plain unadorned examples that don't make it into books. I'm sure many were plain hunting knives and some other examples may have had more typical, but plainer, "dirk" qualities. Drummond mentions things like Gralloch knives, which are seen more as hunting knives. Some are dirk-like in size, others appear to be antecedents of the sgian dubh. They're not really highly decorated, and look like fairly typical hunting knives of the rest of Europe.

Interestingly enough, Vince read through the Scottish Dirk article before it was published and thought it looked good. Happy He mentioned he was seeing some regional & shop variations and different schools of design but that "much more" research was needed. Vince's research is obviously firming up that idea and I look forward to being able to read about the regional schools.

It's important not to get caught up in thinking of absolutes in any evolution. I think dirks evolved as most people and published works do (and how the article lays it out), but we can't assume that every area/production center went through a strict A-B-C-D evolution, for example. Some might have gone A-B-D or A-C-C1-C2-C3, etc. That kind of regional variation is normal for the evolution of any weapon form. The article lays out the general evolution of forms, but can't deal with every possible scenario and example since no comprehensive research exists to draw from.

Happy

ChadA

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Henrik Bjoern Boegh




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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug, 2006 12:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi everybody,

Very interesting topic! What about the pewter dirks and plainer ones like the bone hilted dirks? Are they to be considered more "working-mans dirks"?

Cheers,
Henrik

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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug, 2006 6:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My family has a knife or dirk made by my great, great grandfather. It could theoretically be a fighting knife, but my GGG was a POW during the Civil War, so it's not likely to be a war-era fighting knife (the good people of New York no doubt felt it unwise to allow imprisoned rebs to retain their sidearms). It is known in the family as a pig-sticking knife. Most likely, he made it shortly after the war for slaughtering hogs, although one might argue that a weapon that will slaughter a hog should be sufficient to slaughter a man--see board spears). I bring it up because it could just as easily be a common dirk of a much earlier era. The blade is broad but strongly tapered to a point. Convex, symmetrical edges, cut from a sheet of thin, flat iron and is the ful width and contour of the wood grip, which is convex in its middle portion, with swellings at top and bottom. The blade is sharpened on one edge only, though it's difficult to tell because the blade is so thin. I'll guess that the blade length is ~8". It could certainly pass as a Confederate fighting knife.

Point: The process of creating a simple, all-business knife just didn't change all that much over the centuries. Some would also note that the Southeastern mountains were settled largely by Scottish and Irish immigrants who carried on Old World traditions and material culture long after they had died out elsewhere. So, you get crossbow use, 20th century mountain people singing songs about 16th Anglo-Scottish border characters, Elizabethan expressions, pronunciations, etc. Wouldn't be too surprising that some Southern dirk forms are direct descedents of the rustic dirks of England, Scotland and Ireland.

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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GG Osborne





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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug, 2006 6:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree, Sean, especially the version called the Arkansas Toothpick. I think everyone has the basic truth dead-on that these knives were dagger-like without most of the "finery" we see in the classic carved models. I have seen the so-called Rob Roy dirk handle but for the life of me can't figure out what the grip really looked like or what conjecture could be drawn about the blade shape.

What I would really like to know, is, does anyone have a good illustration (other than perhaps Drummond) of what one of these simple knives looked like??

GG

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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Wed 23 Aug, 2006 6:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You might also want to look at Irish forms for clues. Here's Nathan Bell's Irish Skean:

http://www.myArmoury.com/nateb_dagg_ia_skean.html?3

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Walter Stockwell




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PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 7:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

GG Osborne wrote:
I agree, Sean, especially the version called the Arkansas Toothpick. I think everyone has the basic truth dead-on that these knives were dagger-like without most of the "finery" we see in the classic carved models.

I think there is a big difference between a Scottish dirk and a dagger.
I've looked through the National Museum of Scotland's reserve collection. I've yet to see a Scottish dirk that resembles in any way an Arkansas toothpick. The dirk is single edged, no guard, very distinctive handle and pommel. Even without a fully carved handle, I think the pommel, handle shape, lack of guard and long, single edged blade distinguish the Scottish dirk from other types of knives.

Regarding the evolution from dudgeon dagger to Scottish dirk, I've always been puzzled by two things. First, the classic dudgeon dagger is a stabbing-only weapon. The blades are usually two narrow and thick to have an effective slicing edge. The classic dirk has a broad single edge blade that could obviously be used for slicing. This to my mind marks a fundmental change in use between the two types of blades.

Second, the pommel on the Scottish dirk is radically different from the majority of ballock daggers and dudgeon daggers. The daggers might have a swell towards the pommel, or a "bump." But the dirk has a cap -- sticking out 360 degrees around -- that really effects the way you can hold the dirk. This seems like another fundamental feature of the dirk vs. other knives. Where did this come from? The closest thing I've seen to this handle shape is this celtic bronze sword (from this thread.)


So if the question is about Scottish dirks, I think the everyman's dirk would have been similar to the familiar museum examples, but perhaps less ornate.

Walter
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GG Osborne





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PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 8:42 am    Post subject: The "Common" Dirk         Reply with quote

I think you're right spot on, Walter, regarding the "common" dirk just being a less ornate version of the more elaborate version we see in collections today...probably so common that they did not survive or no one thought they were worth conserving for artistic or even sentimental reasons.

My comments about the Arkansas Toothpick were meant in the context of Chad's comments that what we think of as a dirk may have certain similarities to work-a-day knives in the American context. The Arkansas Toothpick was a "guarded" knife with a double-edge but I have seen Lowland Scottish "dirk/daggers" similar in basic looks. And, no, I don't think this was an evolutionary development. It is interesting though that the legal definition of "dirk" in most state concealed carry laws simply refer to a long, straight, usually double-sided blade.

As far as your comments on the pommel cap are concerned, my thought is utilitarian. The swell at the end of the grip was- in early specimens of swords and daggers- simply to keep the hand from slipping. This swell was prone to splitting and was covered by a metal cap or boss to prevent such. As time passed, they were made more ornate, etc. On longer blades, of course, the pommel cap was a counterweight for balance and handling purposes

So, let me throw this out again....does anyone have a picture or illustration of one or more of these plain dirks? Were the grips simply a cylindrical, lathed turning? I am still interested in getting someones opinion of what the Rob Roy dirk grip really looked like. I have seen the pictures but can't make heards of tails of it due to the angle. Has anyone actually seen the grip in the Argallian Collection?

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Walter Stockwell




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PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: The "Common" Dirk         Reply with quote

GG Osborne wrote:

My comments about the Arkansas Toothpick were meant in the context of Chad's comments that what we think of as a dirk may have certain similarities to work-a-day knives in the American context. The Arkansas Toothpick was a "guarded" knife with a double-edge but I have seen Lowland Scottish "dirk/daggers" similar in basic looks. And, no, I don't think this was an evolutionary development. It is interesting though that the legal definition of "dirk" in most state concealed carry laws simply refer to a long, straight, usually double-sided blade.

As far as your comments on the pommel cap are concerned, my thought is utilitarian. The swell at the end of the grip was- in early specimens of swords and daggers- simply to keep the hand from slipping. This swell was prone to splitting and was covered by a metal cap or boss to prevent such. As time passed, they were made more ornate, etc. On longer blades, of course, the pommel cap was a counterweight for balance and handling purposes.


Re the Arkansas toothpick and common American definitions of dirks: I have to ask if you are interested in what was used in Scotland, during a particular time, or more simply what kinds of long knives various people have carried in various places. A whinger is not a Scottish dirk is not a dagger.

I think the pommel is more involved. The pommel on a Scottish dirk is much larger than the swell on any comparable dagger or long knife. Because it is so pronounced, and 3-D, one cannot use a sabre grip -- one is forced to use a hammer or icepick grip. If one were so concerned with hand slipping, it would seem one would be more interested in having a guard to prevent the hand slipping down onto the blade (for example when one stabbed into something.) The Scottish dirk has a very "unbalanced" handle in the sense that it seems specifically designed for a single use -- unlike something like a standard bowie or toothpick, which typically had handles that allowed for multiple grips.

Walter
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Henrik Bjoern Boegh




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PostPosted: Fri 25 Aug, 2006 5:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,

I think perhaps the discussion is getting a little off-topic..? The real question in this thread is "What did the everyman's dirk look like?" Sorry, I don't mean to ruin any fun Big Grin

When I come to think of it, there is an interesting dirk in one of G. A. Embletons' watercolour paintings in some of the Osprey books covering the 45'. It features simple line decorations like on brass, pewter and horn hilted dirks and has a fairly simple design like on these dirks... Might the dirk be similar to the everyman's dirks? I'll try to get a scan of the watercolour as soon as possible!
And why has Mac held his silence in this discussion?!?! Mac, if you're reading this, please contribute! Big Grin

Cheers,
Henrik

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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Fri 25 Aug, 2006 6:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

On the origin of the the disc pommel: May just be a simple solution arrived at independently by multiple cultures. I'll point out that some early 17th c. basket hilt swords feature a thick disc pommel. IIRC there were daggers in the same period using the same construction.
-Sean

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Henrik Bjoern Boegh




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PostPosted: Fri 25 Aug, 2006 7:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,

Here's the plate I was referring to:

And here's a close-up of the dirk:


Cheers,
Henrik

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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Fri 25 Aug, 2006 9:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are many examples of plain unadorned dirks surviving, most never see the light of day as they are just that, plain.
With limited space available on the museum floors it's hardly surprising that these pieces will ever find their way out of the basement ..... and believe me, although quite interesting & effective, their crudeness hardly compares to the finely carved grips of the dirks usually featured on display.

I think you guys summed up the reasons for the lack of these about pretty well.

Mac

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GG Osborne





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PostPosted: Fri 25 Aug, 2006 9:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Right on Mac. I think everyone is in violent agreement about the plainness and utilitarian nature. However, what did the d@%& things actually look like? Cylindrical grip with no ornamentation? "Dagger" type grips? Were they carved or lathed? I have seen quite a few simple reproduction dirks made by folks just turning a round grip with pommels and sticking that on a blade. I don't mean to get pedantic or nitpicky, I was just wondering if anyone has looked at those reserve collections long enough to have some first person impressions or comments.
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PostPosted: Fri 25 Aug, 2006 11:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

GG Osborne wrote:
Right on Mac. I think everyone is in violent agreement about the plainness and utilitarian nature. However, what did the d@%& things actually look like? Cylindrical grip with no ornamentation? "Dagger" type grips? Were they carved or lathed? I have seen quite a few simple reproduction dirks made by folks just turning a round grip with pommels and sticking that on a blade. I don't mean to get pedantic or nitpicky, I was just wondering if anyone has looked at those reserve collections long enough to have some first person impressions or comments.


Hi George

I recall the MOS reserve having a hodge-podge of styles in their dirk drawers.
Dirks with simple bone grips of various shapes (cylindrical, etc, some with no pommel to speak of) a few with unadorned riveted on handles, all kind of dagger & knife types, several with simple plain cylindrical grip, a pewter piece in the classic brass dirk turned shape with haunch, etc. Barrel shaped grip with simple turned lines, wedge shaped grips, etc!

Whether every piece in these drawers were 100% Scottish made (sans the blades of course) I am uncertain, but certainly the majority were !

A hodge-podge of styles pretty much sums up what I saw (and I've no doubt there were many more that I never got to see)

Mac

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GG Osborne





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PostPosted: Fri 25 Aug, 2006 11:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Mac. I appreciate your time in answering my questions. Now a private matter: you didn't take any of your top secret "I swear not to reveal the contents of these drawers" photos, did you??????
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PostPosted: Fri 25 Aug, 2006 11:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

GG Osborne wrote:
Thanks, Mac. I appreciate your time in answering my questions. Now a private matter: you didn't take any of your top secret "I swear not to reveal the contents of these drawers" photos, did you??????


Like a dummy I left my camera (in case) upstairs went we went down to the basement, as they requested us not to carry any bags, cases, etc! I realized after the fact that I could have pulled my camera out and taken it with me, when we went down to fetch several dirks to bring back up to study, but ,alas, a good opportunity missed.

Vince has several photos of those drawers, from a previous trip that I got to see, but they are locked in his vault of research goodies.

Mac



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