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Shawn Henthorn
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 Posted: Sat 05 Aug, 2006 7:42 am Post subject: Period sword question |
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Hi all, I am trying to build up a late 12th century kit and I want to include a bastard-sword with a type XII blade in it. I remember reading somewhere that the first longswords/bastard swords started appearing arount 1150 . Am I correct in this or do I need to look for something else?
Thanks
Shawn
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Sat 05 Aug, 2006 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Shawn,
This is an issue that has been covered elsewhere on this site but the general consensus is that examples of hand-and-a-half swords would be very rare until around 1250 based on existing historical pieces. Oakeshott does date one sword of this type with a faceted wheel pommel and gaddjhalt cross to the period you refer to. A&A of Minnesota makes a nice replical of this piece.
In general, and others can speak up, if you want a larger sword you should look more toward swords having quite large blades but retaining a single hand grip. The Sword of St. Maurice of Turin by Albion is an example of this as well as the Gaddjhalt which is dated a bit earlier. I own the Templar by Albion which has a nice straight and noble blade that could certainly have been used at the time c. 1150 up until 1200. The Hospitaller is another nice option. I believe that most combat involving swords during your period of interest would have involved the use of a shield.
Hope this is helpful,
Jeremy
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Sat 05 Aug, 2006 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: | | ...Oakeshott does date one sword of this type with a faceted wheel pommel and gaddjhalt cross to the period you refer to. A&A of Minnesota makes a nice replical of this piece..... |
I think you mean Arms & Armor's "12th Century Sword" (pictured below)? I have always admired this piece.
 Attachment: 22.76 KB
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Sat 05 Aug, 2006 11:55 am Post subject: |
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Yes Steve that's the one thanks for the pic,
I would be interested in hearing anyone who owns or has held this sword to comment on its' handling. I am curious how close A&A was able to get with this replica and whether the swords handling is any different from the more typical latter period hand-and-a-half examples.
Jeremy
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sat 05 Aug, 2006 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: | Yes Steve that's the one thanks for the pic,
I would be interested in hearing anyone who owns or has held this sword to comment on its' handling. I am curious how close A&A was able to get with this replica and whether the swords handling is any different from the more typical latter period hand-and-a-half examples.
Jeremy |
I owned that sword, I think Russ Ellis may have bought it from me. It didn't really have what you'd call outstanding handling attributes. It was a bit dead in the hand due to the blades distribution of mass. Not a bad sword mind you, but not one that felt really dynamic in the hand. Albions Baron is a better representation of this particular style of sword. This statement should be taken with the caveat that my example was several years ago. A&A is constantly refining their product so they may have improved this one since then.
| Quote: | | whether the swords handling is any different from the more typical latter period hand-and-a-half examples. |
You'll have to be a bit more specific on that. It handles quite a bit differently than later period longswords as they were designed with very different goals in mind.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sat 05 Aug, 2006 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Period sword question |
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| Shawn Henthorn wrote: | Hi all, I am trying to build up a late 12th century kit and I want to include a bastard-sword with a type XII blade in it. I remember reading somewhere that the first longswords/bastard swords started appearing arount 1150 . Am I correct in this or do I need to look for something else?
Thanks
Shawn |
It depends on how accurate you want your kit to be. As has already been stated, recent studies indicate this type of sword may have an earlier start date than the commonly believed mid-13th century. How many there were, what the stereotypical form was, when did they become common, these are all questions that are still open to debate. If you want to build a high-fidelity type of kit I think you need to stick with a sword type that's unquestionably common for the period, something along the lines of Oakeshotts types XI, XII, their variants, etc. On the other hand, if this type of absolute adherence to known and substantiated accuracy isn't neccessary you have other options. However, most of the age-of-mail longswords currently manufactured have something of an early to mid 13th century look to my eye. If you want any earlier representation of a longsword you might want to consider having one custom made.
Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Sat 05 Aug, 2006 6:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chris Olsen
Location: Saint Paul Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Sat 05 Aug, 2006 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: | Yes Steve that's the one thanks for the pic,
I would be interested in hearing anyone who owns or has held this sword to comment on its' handling. I am curious how close A&A was able to get with this replica and whether the swords handling is any different from the more typical latter period hand-and-a-half examples.
Jeremy |
I own one of these swords (it was the first broadsword I ever bought from Arms and Armor), and I find it to be a very nice sword to use both single handedly and with an off handed weapon, and should I have need to use two hands the handle is just long enough that if I wrap my last two fingers around the pommel I can use it reasonably comfortably , although I have a slightly older version without the fuller but I have hndled the newer version quite often and don't notice a great deal of diffrence in the handling.
but there again different strokes for different folks, I am reading that others have had different results with the sword.
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Shawn Henthorn
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| Posted: Sat 05 Aug, 2006 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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thanks guys, My kit will be "reletivly " accurate with some minor variances. I will be carrying a type XII single hand as my primary but wanted a bastard sword as well, something like an AT1313. And my nasal helmet will have a smaller nasal, much like Balians on "Kingdom of Heaven". I dont know about the historical accuacy of said helmet, but I like the look of it alot more.
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J. Bedell
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| Posted: Sat 05 Aug, 2006 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know how well a bastard sword would fit with your kit (personally I wouldn't carry one for 12thC but of course its your choice) but as for having a smaller nasal, everyone couldn't have had identical nasal pieces.......
-James
The pen may be mighter, but the sword is much more fun.
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Jeremiah Swanger
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| Posted: Sat 05 Aug, 2006 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Shawn Henthorn wrote: | | thanks guys, My kit will be "reletivly " accurate with some minor variances. I will be carrying a type XII single hand as my primary but wanted a bastard sword as well, something like an AT1313. And my nasal helmet will have a smaller nasal, much like Balians on "Kingdom of Heaven". I dont know about the historical accuacy of said helmet, but I like the look of it alot more. |
Many here have mentioned the 12th Century Sword by Arms & Armor (aka "A&A") as your most viable option.
Keeping in mind that this sword has a strongly-Scandinavian flavor (hence the "spike" style cross and the faceted octagonal pommel), it is worthy of note that Arms and Armor does do custom work for a very reasonable price. If this sword was, indeed, dated to 1150 AD, I don't think it would be out of the question to request the "Brazil Nut" pommel and straight cross (See A&A's "Sword of St. Maurice-- Vienna" sword for the hilt type) on such a blade...
If anything, it would give you a truely unique creation that still keeps plenty of historical plausibility...
"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."
- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 06 Aug, 2006 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| Shawn Henthorn wrote: | | And my nasal helmet will have a smaller nasal, much like Balians on "Kingdom of Heaven". I dont know about the historical accuacy of said helmet, but I like the look of it alot more. |
By historical standards the nasal on Balians helmet was far too small, as it really wouldn't have offered much in the way of protection. It looked a bit ridiculous to me. Then again, obscuring a good portion of the male leads face wouldn't have been a good thing by cinematic standards.
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Shawn Henthorn
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| Posted: Sun 06 Aug, 2006 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Thanks everyone, I like the 12th century sword from A&A and will keep it in mind along with the custom ATrim. I didn't figure Balian's helmet was exactly historical but it is close enough to be pluasable and I like the profile of the smaller nasal for some reason, I am also considering on of the Dan Peterson nasal helms with the nasal cut a bit shorter as the width doesn't really bother me but I dont want I comeing down to my mouth. I also like the Sword of St. Maurice, I just have my doubts about how agile a 37" single handed cutting blade would be on foot.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 06 Aug, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| Shawn Henthorn wrote: | | Thanks everyone, I like the 12th century sword from A&A and will keep it in mind along with the custom ATrim. I didn't figure Balian's helmet was exactly historical but it is close enough to be pluasable and I like the profile of the smaller nasal for some reason, I am also considering on of the Dan Peterson nasal helms with the nasal cut a bit shorter as the width doesn't really bother me but I dont want I comeing down to my mouth. I also like the Sword of St. Maurice, I just have my doubts about how agile a 37" single handed cutting blade would be on foot. |
While a longer nasal is correct from an historical standpoint, as well as being more practical from a protection standpoint, I can certainly understand you desire for a shorter one. Mine is of the longer variety, although there are ones longer still.
This can make drinking and eating a bit of a pain while wearing the helmet
I've had a bit of experience with the St. Maurice now and "agile" isn't a word I'd use to describe it. It exhibits excellent dynamic handling properties for what it is and what it's intended to do, but agile and nimble it isn't. On the other hand, since you've mentioned swords by A&A and Albion I assume you aren't looking for a blunt tool to use in re-enactment mock combat scenarios. If this is the case I'm also assuming that you won't actually be using the sword in any kind of mano-a-mano situations. Consequently, for use as an accessory or as an example of a accurate knightly sword for the period I think the St. Maurice would be an excellent option, although it's stretching your stated time period by a bit. Albions Ritter or Hospitaller are also great options for your period.
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Shawn Henthorn
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| Posted: Sun 06 Aug, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. Kelly, thanks for the pics. I first saw your kit on the Cristian Fletcher web site. I really like how you painted your helmet. I have considered a lot of the Albions ( espiecaly the Ritter )but I will probubly wind up going with an AT1315 modified through CF. My kit isn't going to be for reenacting so absolute historical reality is not esintial though it would be nice. The sword will be a sharp for cutting and forms practice while in full armor. I wanted the bastard sword becuase I have been working with Lichtinuer a bit. I may have to push my kit forward from 1170 to about 1250 though a dont want to do this because the period between the second and third crusades is my favorite ( sigh, disapointment ). Of course on the bright side it would give me a nice excuse for a full barrel helm. Sparing for me will be done with aluminum blunts. Half speed and controled with the nasal helm of course, the harder sparing will be done with a face-plated helm. I want to thank every body for their help in this.
Shawn
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 06 Aug, 2006 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the kind words Shawn. There's certainly nothing wrong with an AT and Christians work is getting more impressive all the time. You might be able to have him customize the AT in order to give it an early period look, something along the lines of a proto-Grete Swerde
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