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J Westra
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 Posted: Thu 01 Jun, 2006 6:11 am Post subject: Parrying hooks on a bastards sword |
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I was just wondering has anyone ever seen a bastard sword with parrying hooks? I was more looking for something more historical if anyone knows of one.
Knights > Ninjas
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Thu 01 Jun, 2006 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Parrying hooks on a bastards sword |
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| J Westra wrote: | | I was just wondering has anyone ever seen a bastard sword with parrying hooks? I was more looking for something more historical if anyone knows of one. |
Hooks on a bastard sword? That does not sound historical at all.
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Wolfgang Armbruster
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| Posted: Thu 01 Jun, 2006 10:22 am Post subject: |
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You'll find parrying hooks only on real two-handers / Bidenhaender / Greatswords or whatever you wanna call them.
A normal longsword / bastardsword / one and a half sword doesn't need any since its blade is way too short. You wouldn't be able to carry one in a scabbard with those pointy things sticking out 
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David Martin
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Thu 01 Jun, 2006 11:38 am Post subject: |
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My younger brother's sword has parrying hooks.
Oh... wait... sorry. I was responding to the title of your post rather than the message itself.
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Angus Trim
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| Posted: Thu 01 Jun, 2006 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Parrying lugs yes, not parrying hooks.
In Oakeshott's "The Sword in the Age of Chivalry", Fig 45 shows a hand and a half sword with a short ricasso, and the lugs. Part of the text next to the illustration:
".......indeed I only know of two examples, onw which used to be in the De Cosson Collection, and another which is in the Armeria Real at Madrid. Both are hand and a half swords, but are characterised by having small lugs projecting from each edge just below the ricasso. The De Cosson example {fig 45} is a particularly handsome weapon, its grip and pommel of a form characteristic of the period 1410 - 1440."
So "parrying" lugs did exist on fifteenth century hand and a half swords...........
swords are fun
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Thu 01 Jun, 2006 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Augus
Are these swords shown in Records of the Medieval Sword?
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Angus Trim
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| Posted: Thu 01 Jun, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Randall Pleasant wrote: | Augus
Are these swords shown in Records of the Medieval Sword? |
I've never seen it there........ Nice thing about "Records" and "Chivalry" is that they're a bit different. The typologies are a bit different, and "Chivalry" does have mention of a couple of swords that "Records" doesn't have....
swords are fun
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J Westra
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| Posted: Fri 02 Jun, 2006 2:23 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the reply guys, especially to Angus for finding some 
I shall try to get hold of a copy of the above meantioned books...but being in Australia the postage costs more than the value of the book, making them really expensive.
Thanks again.
Knights > Ninjas
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Hank Reinhardt
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 02 Jun, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: parrying hooks |
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I've seen the sword in the Real Armeria, but I wouldn't call the small projections parrying hooks, but rather just small lugs. I'm not even sure what the purpose would be. Seems far too small to be an effective guard. I am inclined to think of them as more decorative than anything else. The sword would be too short for them to be really effective as a guard for the hand.
Hank Reinhardt
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Fri 02 Jun, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Angus Trim wrote: | Parrying lugs yes, not parrying hooks.
In Oakeshott's "The Sword in the Age of Chivalry", Fig 45 shows a hand and a half sword with a short ricasso, and the lugs. Part of the text next to the illustration: |
I'm not sure I'd call these things parrying lugs as much as them being a decorative ricasso, personally but this sword has been discussed in Another Topic for anybody wanting more information.
This seems to be the sword that many use for inspiration (and historical validation?) of many fantasy/contempory sword designs.
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 02 Jun, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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I've often wondered if swords like these were inspired by the practice swords used commonly in Germanic countries (see attached image from the Meyer manuscript). Perhaps someone just liked the design and wanted a sharp made this way. I've also wondered if perhaps such a sword started out it's life as a practice sword, and later was reground into a sharp. I don't really think that second one is the case, but I suppose we'll never know for sure.
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HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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David Welch
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| Posted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | I've often wondered if swords like these were inspired by the practice swords used commonly in Germanic countries (see attached image from the Meyer manuscript). Perhaps someone just liked the design and wanted a sharp made this way. I've also wondered if perhaps such a sword started out it's life as a practice sword, and later was reground into a sharp. I don't really think that second one is the case, but I suppose we'll never know for sure. |
We have been using those kind of feather swords for over a year now at ARMA Knoxville, and we have found that the shield is really a "thumb protector" when using a thumb grip. A sword made like this one would do the same thing I am sure, but I don't know if that was it's only purpose.
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| David Welch wrote: | | We have been using those kind of feather swords for over a year now at ARMA Knoxville, and we have found that the shield is really a "thumb protector" when using a thumb grip. A sword made like this one would do the same thing I am sure, but I don't know if that was it's only purpose. |
I don't know if I quite agree. If that were so, I would expect more non-training swords to have this, instead of just a couple oddities. I also train with such a sword, and I've never noticed a difference in how often my thumb is hit between it and any other blunt I've used that does not have the "winged" ricasso. Honestly, I've rarely found the thumb to be in danger at all: If I get it in the hand, it's more likely going to be on the opposite side of the hand.
As an aside, the term "feather sword"/"federschwert" is actually a 19th century term, and was not used in period.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 22 Jun, 2006 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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Bill;
Could these winged ricasso be there to spare the guard from some damage and extend the useful life of the training sword ?
Any advantage at controlling an opponents blade a couple of inches from the guard rather than just at the guard ?
Could be to train one to avoid letting the opponents sword slip into contact with the guard and use the forte at least 2" / 3" from the guard ? All this assuming that one would rather not usually use the guard if one has the choice.
I have no idea if this makes sense: Clever or Not ? 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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This is a standard topic