The Paradox of Light "Heavy" Swords -- myArmoury.com

Steven H · Posted: Tue 30 May, 2006 11:32 am Post subject:

First of all the mass of an object does not change based on its position. The amount of force necessary to move it or to hold it up against the force of gravity will change based on lever mechanincs, but the mass does not change. (The mass is determined by the count of particles that it is made of).

The perception of the mass is of course greatly affected by the force the person needs to exert to hold the weapon against gravity. If you hold a two pound weight-lifting weight than it feels lighter than a two pound sword because the weight has its CoB over your palm and the sword has its CoB several inches from your hand, if you're holding it parallel to the ground.

Which leads to the next point. If a person picks up the sword and holds it parallel than it will feel heavier than if they immediately hold it upright (a ready to strike position, where the 'predatory' feel becomes more apparent).

Laurie W · Industry Professional

It's better than years ago when fewer custom swords were made and commercial ones were little more than cast "dead iron".

But then the myths still go on. Remember when one well known English expert was asked about the weight of swords during an intermission of "The Messenger" on "A&E" a few years ago? He picked up a reproduction that was used in the film but said the real ones from that period were 14 pounds! The NetSword community forum REALLY tore into that statement.

As many pointed out, here it is a matter of physics. It is a balance of how much is in the "hand" and "out there" to give that "alive" feeling Oakshott spoke of. Or that "preditory" feeling mentioned (like that analogy) But it is different holding something that long straight out, people are not used to. Even a five pound shovel is not held out that way but two handed. A three pound hammer has the weight closer to the hand. But people do not think in those terms. Just by "looks" that sword must weigh "20lbs"

I just went through a discussion on my gaming site with a guy who thought the Belgae used 44kg axes and swords against the Romans! He became very indignant when I pointed out they did not and there never was any found remotely close to that. "They used drugs to induce strength!" and as a woman, I did not know how much poundage a man could use (he claimed being a weightlifter on top of this) Bull, I also lift weights so I do know better than to fall for that. As the wife of a weaponsmaker I knew he was going on false assumptions. Well, he was a troll but did have the good sense not to pursue this line further.

David Martin · Posted: Tue 30 May, 2006 2:41 pm Post subject:

...reminds me of a sword I saw for sale in New Hope, PA. It was reportedly an authentic Scottish Claymore replica that had an absolutely massive blade at least 4 feet long with a total weight of 67 pounds! The fellow told me that he had successfully cleaved engine blocks with it. He was, of course, adamant that his product was an accurate representation of the Claymore. Razz

Jonathan Harton · Posted: Tue 30 May, 2006 6:13 pm Post subject:

I work in my Dad's auto and tire shop during the summer and experience something similar. For whatever reason, some people see a tire and just think because it is rubber and has a hole in it that it is not heavy. Of course, a 13-14 inch tire is not often what I would call heavy. But I have seen a few people try to pick up a 15-16" SUV or ATV tire with one hand and look amazed when it does not budge. I suppose some people don't take into account that there is actually steel wire in a tire. Not to mention that rubber, both synthetic and natural, is rather dense. A 33" mudder can weigh in around 90lbs depending on the lug size and pattern.

Through such observation, I think the mind plays tricks on our perception of weight and mass. Plus it's funny as hell sometimes.

Carl Goff · Posted: Wed 31 May, 2006 8:58 pm Post subject:

Laurie W · Industry Professional

Unfortunately, a young man came to us, once, showing off a "claymore" where the spring steel blade was just metal removed into shape. Big humoungous, heavy "thing". The pommel was small trailer hitch to offset the "weight". Argh.

He has since been nicely "reeducated" and shown the "light".

"Strongest Man" contest. There was one event where the competitor had to hold out heavy double bladed "Viking Axes" straight up from the sides. The point was how long they could hold them up before having to drop them.

Konstantin Tsvetkov · Posted: Thu 01 Jun, 2006 1:42 am Post subject:

I have same experience as Nathan with people, who held sword for the first time: they always wondered how light and FLEXIBLE a sword could be. By the way, rapiers usually seems to be "too heavy" to them, (probably influence of sport fencing).

One thing worth to mention is difference between blunt and sharpened sword. I have two Embeltons, made by Pavel Moc, a blunt and a sharp. They feel completely different. The blunt sword, though not heavy at all (about three pounds) feels like an axe, comparing with the sharp one. I guess Pavel used same blades for both swords and still, they feel COMPLETELY different.

About a capability of a trained warrior to handle a heavy sword; I don't know much about miracles of the past, but have seen many times how professional fighters are reluctant to lift even their bare hands after 30 minutes of sparring. They are strong and well trained people.

J Westra · Posted: Thu 01 Jun, 2006 5:41 am Post subject:

I am rather new to the forum and I haven't noticed a lot of links...so if I am wrong in linking this I am sorry, but I have been doing a lot of research on swords lately and I found this a really good read. I just thought some of you guys might like it.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm

There are lots of other articles there that are great, and he talks about how replica swords, while very similar in both weight and almost identical in looks feel nothing alike in weight due to the materials and balance. Hope you enjoy!

Craig Peters · Posted: Thu 01 Jun, 2006 6:08 am Post subject:

I just wanted to add a quick follow up to my initial post. On Monday evening, one of my bosses came over to my house. He's a young guy, only 28, and he's one of those slim, athletic sorts of people. I showed him my three Albions and allowed him to pick them up. Judging by his non-verbal responses, there was no indication that he thought any of them were heavy. In fact, he seemed to be quite impressed with the way the Squire Line Bastard felt in one hand, and that was before I explained that it was primarily made to be used with two.

Chad Arnow · myArmoury Team

I've had friends pick up a 2.5 pound sword and, when asked how much they think it weighs, say "20 pounds" or more. I think pre-conceived notions are powerful things. So many people have been reached by inaccurate information that it's evidently possible to have the brain overrule the senses.

Chad Arnow · myArmoury Team

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Thu 01 Jun, 2006 2:17 pm Post subject:

Well, sometimes people react to blade presence more that actual weight: I find that I perceive my Albion Gaddhjalt as being heavier that my Albion Tritonia while the actual weight of the Tritonia or of my A & A Black prince is greater.

If I try to hold my A & A Pollaxe by one hand at the but end I will perceive it as very heavy: Much heavier than it really is.

I guess we judge these thing by how hard holding on seems to be and how tightly we must grip and how fast we get tired.

Joe Fults · Posted: Thu 01 Jun, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject:

Glen A Cleeton · Posted: Fri 02 Jun, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject:

In doing some public events, it is usually younger folk that need the explanation of perceived weight.

What I usually do to explain it is to have them handle a Windlass Patton, which is overweight in its own right. Because the static balance puts all the weight in their hand, they readily see that another sword they previously thought too heavy (at similar weight), was simply balanced differently.

Two other swords I often demonstrate this with are an A&A Black Prince and an old ATrim XIIIa. The A&A is more than a half pound heavier but "feels" much lighter to most folk.

What always feels heavier than normal to me is when I pack three or four swords together. They always feel like they weigh more than a sum of their weights.

Cheers

GC

Alexander Hinman · Posted: Fri 02 Jun, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject:

I think it has to do with two things: First is 'looking' heavy, and second is preconceived notions.

The example with the tires is a good one. Tires, to me, look rather light. Yet when I pick them up there is a surprising heft, and I have been surprised more than once by the weight of a spare tire. A part of looking heavy is seeing how they are used. All tires do is get spun very easily, so they must be light. Swords, on the other hand, are often used for great cutting blows or powerful thrusts. This makes them look heavier due to impressions regarding use. Swords also 'look' heavier for reasons that are beyond my levels of understanding.

Preconceived notions, of course, are also very important, and I think swords are one of the bigger victims of this, but Chad gave a very good example of this so I won't write further.

George Doby · Posted: Fri 02 Jun, 2006 8:20 pm Post subject:

when we got back from iraq last dec. i brought several of my swords(lutel, mrl, cold steel) to the armory because i wanted to let some fellow soldiers see what decent replicas were. while in kuwait there were couple of venders that had junk wallhangers that i talked them out of buying overpriced also. some who handled them said 'heavy' some said 'light' but the light went on in all of their eyes as to what a 'real' sword felt like. i too found it interesting as to their comments on weight. the ones who said heavy when i told them the apx weight kind of looked at me as if i was mistaken
some of the weight issue i believe has to do w/ balance of the sword, other is preconceived notion, another is most folks don't really know how much a pound or kilo or what ever really is. a 16oz tall boy is a pound, bout what a vcr tape weighs also, a pint mason jar is a pound if full

Marcos Cantu · Posted: Sat 03 Jun, 2006 9:44 am Post subject:

I think alot of it has to do with people just not being accustomed to using a 2-4 pound object for more than a couple of minutes. IIRC, Roman soldiers trained with dummy gladii that were 3 times heavier than the real thing. This way their arms had strenghened to accept the greater weight and they would not tire as quickly when using the real gladius.

Alexander Ren · Posted: Sat 03 Jun, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject:

I have heard people make these comments as well and always wondered about it until I saw this thread and got to thinking about it. I have an albion squire line great sword. I do not know what the actual weight is but the website lists it as being 3lbs 10oz so I should think it is pretty close to that weight.

I have noticed that almost all of those who think my sword is heavy have had no training of any sort with swords and other melay weapons. However, every one of my JSA friends who have held my sword have commented how nice it feels in their hands. Also, at a local Ren. Fair I met a guy who trained with bokken, iaito, etc. who saw me carrying around my sword. He commented that I should get a real sword not a 50lbs piece of junk. My reply was that I handed him the sword and watch his sceptical look turn to one of amazement.

I agree with those who have already posted that most people today don't know what it is like to use a 2-4lbs object for more than a few minutes. However, those with previous experience (my JSA friends for example) do know what is is like and have a very good frame of reference with which to judge the sword's weight.

Alex

Edited to add: I just had another idea of something to try. Next time someone says that a sword is heavy, walk them through a couple of drills and guards so that they get an idea of how it feels when it is doing what it is made to do.

Marton Pap · Posted: Tue 06 Jun, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject:

Hi!
Does anyone know how old is the really heavy sword myth and why did it appear?
If it comes from the comparison of (REAL) sabres it may be less than a hundred years old. For a soldier familiar with sabres a medieval sword is really heavy, but if he is only told they are heavy he doesn't imagine a 10kg one because he knows that it is useless. If someone who have never seen a sword (even a sabre) hears that a sword is heavy easily thinks about 10kg. So becouse if swords (at least) weren't rare until ww2, maybe the myth isn't older than 50-100 years.
Any opinions?
Does anyone know any sources older than 50-100yrs where swords appear to be extremely heavy?
It would be interesting to know if the misconceptions are really that young, why they are so widely spread.

Michael F. · Posted: Tue 06 Jun, 2006 12:43 pm Post subject:

I think it may be due to the hollywood-type views people see about swords. I remember when I got my first "sword" ( a fantasy wallhanger I bought in a FISHING shope for $40!). I remember first picking it up. The first thing I said was "Wow, it's heavy". This was probably from watching all those fantastical edge-on-edge sword fights I had seen on TV and in Movies, where the heroes could take on 30 people with ease as they swung their highly decorated swords like they would a 6 oz yard stick. I think that when people see real swords, they look light, and that they could wield them as fast as their favorite fantasy heroes.
With all the sword Myths everywhere about swords made of gold weighing 20lbs, this makes their notion of what a certain weight feels like wrong. For example, one might think a sword that really weighs 3lbs weighs 20lbs. This was the actual case with one of my friends when first showing him the Crecy. Therefore, they think a 20lbs sword would be easy to wield, as crazy as it sounds.
Us sword buffs, we know what weight is which most of the time, and therefore, being "seasoned" in sword weights, think a sword like the Crecy might be "Light", which was actually the first thing I said when first pulling it out of the Box (though not from experience from me, but because the 2 other cheap swords I've had were hard to wield and just so bloody heavy!).