[David Ruff]

Thanks for the input randell. You along with others in positions that can touch the armor we will be creating alike plates for have been emailing and have been a REAL asset to get a close test. Believe me i know this is a huge undertaking and even at its end there will most likely be more questions then answers nd that bothers me, but something i will have to live with.

I am very sure that under the right circumstances plate was failed to bows and crossbows alike, i make no illussions about that. In fact even the 12ga soft plate i fire WILL deter the 450lb crossbow at angles - most of the time shattering the bolt. This is where i have the thery that archers and crossbowmen alike got smart - no sence in firing if you know it will get attention that will lead to your death over the attention a missile was designed to deliever.

For me, i hope to become an expert within the field of the crossbow and to some extent the long bow. I got a LONG way to go in medieval crossbows. I build them, i fire them and at the end of the year i embark on a trip to germany, italy, england and scottland. I will be going to the collections and able to see the bows up close after hours via a makers pass through an invitation to the forge i make my steel parts at. This will also be the time i sit with medieval hisotians and ask all the questions i have been writing down for a year.

This is tempered with my company currently working the props for a movie to be shot in 2008.

I also merchant and actively sell crossbows and bows at medieval events and it is funny just how divided the lines are on this subject. This is one reason i fire bolts through the 12ga soft plate. Granted it is not armor - but it is a close approximation and shows that these weapons were not toys, but rather deadly. Again i make NO claims it was as easy as aim - fire - armored knight was dead. But it did happen. People seem to be firmly on the armor or the bow side... there seems to be no real middle ground.

I undertook this testing as the tests i have seen and heard about use light weapons against heavy armor OR vice verse. I want to do this test more so that i can control the weapons, the armor and read speed, weight and angles with real thickness and real power. I mean really, how many heavy crossbow makers do you know of? i know there are about 4 to 6 in the world that make them. Even less that fire them. The man i learned from has done it for 50 years and he met Payne Gallwey's sister when he was a boy. He has held the weapons in Mr. Gallweys book, so for me it gives me a reference from one expert to a student, that at times - gets ahead of himself.

I have fired upto 750lb crossbows, i have made upto 600lb crossbows, so this experiment is also an excuse to up my limits and test my skills as these weapons also have a real nasty learning curve - one mistake and people can die. I can only imagine the mishaps that happen on crude steels and heavy bows. I know i have seen a few prods explode and i am here to tell you even a light one sounds like a shotgun round and can spread material for a long way.


Again i thank you for posting up, i am sure Mr Howard and i will BOTH learn something at the end and hopefully both bring a sense of understanding to the table when the results come thorough.

[Nathan Robinson]

Like Dan, I'm eagerly waiting for the citing of sources for some of these things said about historical accounts.

Thank you.

[George Hill]

[David Ruff]

[David Ruff]

[Clinton Harris]

My name is Cinton Harris a general partner at Wild wolf Forge (along with Dan Davis and Amy), an armourer, sword smith, and hilt maker.

I shall endeavor to create 2 true breastplates properly formed and functioned of the German design from 1500, export style, backed by rivited chain mail of exacting specs with a gambison behind it as well. This should clear the "they wore more than that" argument.

Conducting tests upon these two breastplates as accurate as can be done. Breast plate #1 shall be tested against manual operated Bow (horse, long, etc. etc). The test will be from a 35 Lbs bow until penetration is is found at 90 degrees then vary the angle by 10 degrees until peneration is no longer achieved, at which point a heavier poundage pull will be used. Breast plate #2 shall be tested against cross bows in a similar fashion. I am doing this at my own business' and UC crossbows' expense. I saw specs of thickness for armour, but what was not desribed was design; as shape and design plays a critical role in the protection of steel covering. Let's hear ideas, outside the afore mentioned German export breastplate.

I direct this to Dan- I need exacting specs of this legandary armour you speak of, not just thickness but also shape and configration of this armour (fluted, flat, landed???), for exacting results, I shall test your specified breastplate seprately from the others to end this silly debate, though be it if you say a complicated style (puffed and rolled), it shall not be an entire breast plate but of a fair amount of surface area to permit true testing.

I also request that any expert we may have (credentials required) willing to have a look at the weapon and armor after the tests (as well as opening testing (insurance company just flipped out) for those that wish to be present) to verify results, as there will be video and a written summery of the construction of the armour and weapons.

Metalergy 101: the metals we produce today is of a far superior quality than what was manufactored even 80 years ago. The steel will be manufactored of what is available commercially from the mill, I will then heat it to critical, oil quench and heat temper, this is an involved process that was not done on period amour for the masses. This should give the metal breast plates an adequate Rockwall hardness of period armour, if not harder yet. (FYI water and oil quenching alone make steels brittle, not stronger. Ever drop a quenched war hammer and have it shatter on concrete? I have) Steel is steel, a 12-1 matrix of Fe and Carbon. Steel is not an element; iron (Fe) is and is actually softer than steel (if not then modern buildings would be made with iron and not steel) There are tons, literally tons of information of steels, manufacturing, rockwall hardness, etc, etc. I refer to them for verificatin as I am not writting a metelargy thesis here.

I do not care one way or the other as to results as my life no longer depends on an outcome, this is just to end this debate as much as possible.

Now for the arrogant part, so please forgive, I will reply to posts as I can, I will not get into silly none important debates of usless almost information or what uncle Buddie's best friend's dog swears is true.

If my test specs are incorrect or should be modified (before I begin work on these armour pieces, as armouring is alot of work) please inform me. I would like metalergical specs of period armor and bolt/arrow heads if they are available.

Sincerely,

the idiot with a hammer.

[Glen A Cleeton]

One of the problems inherent of those that write and re-write history is credibility and accuracy.

It is often easy to dismiss Froissart and Walsingham accounts but they were, after all, chroniclers (tabloid authors) of their day. That their work appears in translations makes it even tougher to seperate wheat from chaf. With them working from period accounts, their slants and biases further mutate in later editions.

Randall Moffet posted about some stuff I'm reading through at that British History online site I posted earlier in this thread. What is presented there is also edited but does offer some clues for further reasearch. Old and original (unedited) texts would be useful, as language and word usage has changed quite a bit.

The metallurgy is probably the largest hurdle and appears to be a large part of the current focus in research. It will be interesting to see "acceptable to all" results but I feel there will be a lot of continued debate on the issue. Count me more an interested bystander.

Cheers

GC

[Felix Wang]

Clinton,

Thank you for the generous offer. I have read this thread, but not entered into it before now. If I may make two suggestions, I would like to suggest that the breast plates be designed along the lines of some specific surviving example (to forstall criticism of shape, thickness, et al.) and that the heads of the arrows and bolts also be designed along historical specifications. Alas, I am not knowledgeable enough to supply these things; but armour data might be available from various individuals, perhaps someone in the Armour Research Society. For arrowheads, perhaps the RA may be able to help.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Clinton;

Just a simple welcome to the site and this topic and, if you have time and are so inclined, you might find other topic threads that you might find of interest or start your own topic threads that I'm sure many would find interesting.

Looking forward to reading the detailed results. Thanks.

[Nathan Robinson]

[Clinton Harris]

[Clinton Harris]

[Clinton Harris]

[Glen A Cleeton]

I don't now if any here are good with 15th century Italian, so I can't say if these are even relevant.

http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/sources/mantuacrossbows.htm

I'm getting very sparse results with Babelfish, et all and have not sat down to go word by word.

Cheers

GC

[Clinton Harris]

I shall cut the plate armor on 6-11-2005 from a pattern I shall post here. Something 1550-1620 of the common type used by Men-at-arms/knights. that same day I plan on drawing the prods according to the specs given in Payne's work for the bow he tested/used--this was a "average bow" of the era rated at/around 1200 lbs pull of a windless type. For the crossow I am using Payne's work as the source for crossbows. Armor of the same ear, I am intrested in hearing about ranges for the test? 100 yards, or further (I granatee no hits past 100 yards without my rifle). I do ntot hink this bow I build wil be for sale, but if intrested after testing i shall be happy to work with UC crossbow on a remake (the first always has the mistakes and is not up to sale quailty, form-fit-function). I did the math a windlas is a 45-1 machine meaning a 1200 lbs prod should feel about 100 on the cranks, easy enough to pull with the machine.

Open question anyone know the Rockwall harness of a breatplate of the time I speak of? The wife will not let me destructive test the period armor around here.

[Clinton Harris]

pre or 1520 armor, though a 8.0mm would be intrestin.

See said idiot with a hammer

[Dan Howard]

[Dan Howard]

[Jean Thibodeau]

[David Ruff]