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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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Jean Thibodeau
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 Posted: Wed 26 Apr, 2006 10:58 pm Post subject: Re: Revival Clothing's "How a Man Shall Be Armed" |
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Very interesting article but without maille the coverage has holes were a sword could still be effective: More complete and later armour leave a lot less vulnerable targets, maybe why in the transitional period wearing a full hauberk was still the norm and the plate was extra protection but far from total coverage.
In a way, the choice of using just the plate for this article gives a better idea at a glance where one would still feel a little naked without maille.
Wearing maille under plate is tricky if the maille + plate bind and reduce range of motion and even more with less than perfectly tailored cheap of the rack maille. Even in the 14th Century the temptation to either use just the maille with only limited plate or just the plate without the maille must have been strong. Voiders and maille gussets sort of gives you the best of both with less weight and heat buildup.
The use of a coat of plates or a thick gambison at this time would, I think, give more coverage than the early breast plate when not also using a maille shirt.
In any case the article is very good and useful, and the above are just my guesses inspired by it.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Thu 27 Apr, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Hi Gents,
Thanks for posting this Bill!
Jean - We chose to show this without the mail haubergeon because it reflects how most of our recreationist customers will wear the configuration for tournament fighting. We do however mention the haubergeon in the accompanying text:
"The gambeson is buttoned shut and belted with a heavy bronze or gold plaque belt. At this point, if Christian were going to wear mail, the haubergeon would be donned. As he has chosen to forego the mail, the cuirass comes next."
If I were wearing a haubergeon, the vambraces and spaulders would most likely be pointed to it, rather than the now concealed gambeson.
It's also worth pointing out that our gambeson, like similar period garments, is a light armour in and of itself, and quite capable of providing some resistance to blows.
Here, btw, is the same harness (more or less), worn over my haubergeon:
The haubergeon in this case is *very* fitted (and fitted to a c.1990 155 lb. Christian Tobler, not the current 175 lb. model) and would not fit over the gambeson - any gambeson - in any case. But with the right mail, this could be done quite nicely.
Thanks for the interest guys!
[/url]
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Thu 27 Apr, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Got any more pictures of the pole arm?
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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Patrick Kwelty
Location: Bordentown, New Jersey Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Thu 27 Apr, 2006 9:29 am Post subject: |
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I don't know about you guys, but I would want it to be a bit more loose on the skin. I mean If I was stuck in a battle for a few hours wearing that I think I would die. If it was a little bit looser I think it would be a bit more bearable and less restricting, plus the distance between the shock from the armor being struck to the body, or next layer of clothing would be even more absorbed if it was farther from the body, one would think. Who know's I'm just a newbie poster 
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 27 Apr, 2006 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Christian;
Thanks for that pict with the maille: It looks really good on the 155 pound 1990 model.   
In my case getting into armour without any help is challenging at my 250 pound 2006 5' 9" body ( Thankfully 25 years of weight training means that " only " 50 pounds of this is fat.  So I don't quite look like the Michelin man.)
Oh, and my maille is the cheap off the rack kind.
As I own 2 of your gambison, one in natural and the other in black I'm more than happy with them and use the black one all the time as comfortable around the house wear and the natural color is the one that gets dirty under maille &/or plate.
The light gambison you make as under-armour does give some cut protection on its own ( I would be curious how it would compare to the really thick multilayered linen one though ? ) Oh, I did try putting on the two gambison at the same time and it worked well as to fit because the black one is slightly bigger even if they are both nominally the same " large " size: Actually, I'm quite happy that the natural color one is tight and the black one a little loose as it gives me interesting options.
I wonder if two gambison like this compare to one of those thick ones as to protection. I can also see wearing maille over one gambison and putting the second one over both maille and the first gambison. ( Fit might be too tight for this unless I got the extra large for the outside gambison. )
I did read somewhere that with maille using the point on the foundation garment is better than pointing directly to the maille: This wasn't explained how that would be accomplished ? I imagine that the squire helping the Knight to arm himself would pull the points attached to the gambison through the maille links maybe using some sort of blunt tipped hooked needle to fish out the point strings between the links of maille.
In many cases pointing directly to the maille should work just as well and be much easier to do with no help.
Not using maille in your example was a good idea in any case since, as you said, most people will wear plate without the maille hauberk. Oh, one thing that I think would cover the " essentials " would be a maille skirt covering from the bottom of the breast plate to half way to the knees or a plackard with fauld and tassets: This last would be more 15th century I believe or late 14th.
The pourpoint seems like a more comfortable option than the wide belt I use currently: This works but annoying to wear for extended periods.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jonathon Janusz
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| Posted: Thu 27 Apr, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Christian, if you don't mind my asking, how do you have your scabbard suspended from your plaque belt in the photo with your haubergeon? Also, is the closure on the plaque belt a hook and eye of some sort, or is it buckled with the buckle turned to the back?
Jean, you were right the first time as to pointing when using mail; the points are pulled through the mail from the foundation garment. Pointing directly to mail may work, but keep in mind that any time your mail slides, whatever is pointed to it will slide - invariably into the worst possible position it can be at the time, as mail by design in meant to move . Assuming your arming clothes are well fitted, they aren't going anywhere when you move which gets back to the purpose of pointing the harness to them rather than (as Christian pointed out) constrictively buckling straps to hold it all together. Think of your points as holding your armour to your body (weight wise and most of the positioning) while your straps are for fine adjustment to keep everything in line while you are moving around in it.
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Al Muckart
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| Posted: Thu 27 Apr, 2006 4:29 pm Post subject: Arming Points and "Cordweiners Coode" |
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The article mentioned the following paragraph:
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"the arming points must be made of fine twine, such as men make for crossbow strings and they must be trussed small and pointed as points. And they must be waxed with cordweiners coode[?], and then they will neither stretch nor break." |
The "cordweiners coode" mentioned there is a particular type of wax used by cordwainers (shoemakers -- the term derives from the fact that the high-class ones worked with leather from Moorish Cordoba in Spain).
The wax is used in the assembly of thread for shoemaking. The threads are built up to the desired thickness out of individually waxed strands of single-strand linen thread with tapered ends. Each end is attached to a bristle which was used to lead the thread through the holes made by the awl, but I digress...
The thing about the wax is that it is extremely tacky and knots made in thread or cord waxed with it will be _extremely_ hard to undo - in fact they usually need to be cut out and certainly won't come undone during combat. It also serves to waterproof the cord and stop it from rotting or weakening in the damp.
Medieval points were made by fingerloop braiding, which builds very very strong cords. I don't have any specific information on whether or not the individual strands were waxed before the cord was built or not, and I haven't gotten around to attempting to braid waxed strands yet. I might have a go when I get home.
There are a few recipies for code around, and they vary depending on whether you're making a softer wax for using in winter or a harder one for using in summer. They are all a mixture of wax and pitch with optional other ingredients though. The wax (usually beeswax) gives the code it's 'body' and the pitch - pine pitch not petroleum pitch - gives it the tackyness that makes it work. I use pine rosin, sourced from antique furniture restorers as my pitch with good results.
The stuff is still used by modern bespoke shoemakers who hand-stitch using techiques that are basically unchanged since medieval times. A thread discussing the making of code, or hand wax as it is also called, can be found in this thread on the The Honourable Company of Cordwainers website and on Marc Carlson's website.
I hope that info is useful.
--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Thu 27 Apr, 2006 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Jonathon,
| Jonathon Janusz wrote: | | Christian, if you don't mind my asking, how do you have your scabbard suspended from your plaque belt in the photo with your haubergeon? Also, is the closure on the plaque belt a hook and eye of some sort, or is it buckled with the buckle turned to the back? |
I don't mind at all - we're pleased to generate the interest!
First, the plaque belt I'm wearing in the order picture with the mail haubergeon is a junky affair from Museum Replicas that I made due with back then. It has a homemade frog style rigging for the scabbard.
The new one is a lovely brass creation, enamaled with black and gold, from Anshelm Arms. It doesn't have a sword attachment and I'm still debating whether to cook up one or use a separate thin sword belt along with it. Both solutions are documentable. In the case where scabbards attached directly to the plaque belt, some sort of hook, or two descending short chains were used to affix it to the belt.
| Quote: | | Jean, you were right the first time as to pointing when using mail; the points are pulled through the mail from the foundation garment. Pointing directly to mail may work, but keep in mind that any time your mail slides, whatever is pointed to it will slide - invariably into the worst possible position it can be at the time, as mail by design in meant to move . Assuming your arming clothes are well fitted, they aren't going anywhere when you move which gets back to the purpose of pointing the harness to them rather than (as Christian pointed out) constrictively buckling straps to hold it all together. Think of your points as holding your armour to your body (weight wise and most of the positioning) while your straps are for fine adjustment to keep everything in line while you are moving around in it. |
Boy, I'd like to know how you pull those points through, especially if it's the 8mm or smaller ID links of period mail. I've pointed stuff to mail before though, and if the haubergeon is fitted (and it *must* be to go under the very fitted plate armour we see from the period), it isn't going to slide around at all (mine doesn't).
Remember, effigies and iconography show a very slim line. Even if this is exaggerated a little for style, they must've achieved a good fit, based upon surviving vambraces and such. This is one reason we went with less padding and a tighter fit when we designed our linen gambeson, which ultimately completely supplanted our earlier, and bulkier, cotton version.
All the best,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 27 Apr, 2006 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Boy, I'd like to know how you pull those points through, especially if it's the 8mm or smaller ID links of period mail. I've pointed stuff to mail before though, and if the haubergeon is fitted (and it *must* be to go under the very fitted plate armour we see from the period), it isn't going to slide around at all (mine doesn't). |
Yes I wonder about how one would do that myself or how useful it really is compared to just pointing through the maille only. Like I said, I read this somewhere recently on another forum site but don't remember exactly where, so the source is a bit vague. It's also why I thought that maybe some tool was used to pull the point through the maille links and for sure no one could do this without help. If it's an authentic method it might be a better method by only a tiny margin.
In any case the article is very useful.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jonathon Janusz
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| Posted: Thu 27 Apr, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Hello back, Christian. Thanks for your replies 
I see your point when looking at 8mm or less ID links. I always kind of pictured either using a larger diameter link in places or the resourceful use of idle rings to solve the problem. Maybe someone who has had more experience with historical mail samples can shed some light? This may sound like a silly little detail, but c14th arms and armour are some of my favourite to study. I am very excited to hear your input .
When you discuss having such a tight fit on your haubergeon, I completely agree with you on the slim outline and the choice of minimal padding. Between a pourpoint of a couple layers and a gambeson of a couple more, I've been thinking that there is plenty of padding there; especially as a comfort-adding device for arguably in some cases two complete harnesses. The thing about the mail in this case that has bugged me is the sleeves. Assuming, for sake of discussion, that one has full (or nearly full) length sleeves beneath a set of plate arms, how does one judge the fit? Too tight and the mail is at full stretch constantly and mobility at the elbow suffers; too loose and you are hard pressed to find somewhere to go with all the mail while maintaining the slim profile you're after with the plates. Further, if the mail hangs a little loose the plates (I would think the spaulders some of the worst offenders) have a chance to go all sorts of odd ways if pointed to the mail alone? Or am I over thinking this and the padded foundation fills out the very slightly loose mail to "snug" which allows the plates to settle comfortably and not wander around? Was any (intentionally designed) slack in the mail taken up by gartering it in places as was seemingly done in earlier times, in this case beneath the plates?
This discussion is excellent in that these "how does it work" kind of questions are some of the most prevalent it seems from observers when attending events, and the academic things we learn are always more strongly supported with real-world experience. Great stuff!
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Al Muckart
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| Posted: Thu 27 Apr, 2006 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Christian,
| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | Boy, I'd like to know how you pull those points through, especially if it's the 8mm or smaller ID links of period mail. I've pointed stuff to mail before though, and if the haubergeon is fitted (and it *must* be to go under the very fitted plate armour we see from the period), it isn't going to slide around at all (mine doesn't).
Remember, effigies and iconography show a very slim line. Even if this is exaggerated a little for style, they must've achieved a good fit, based upon surviving vambraces and such. This is one reason we went with less padding and a tighter fit when we designed our linen gambeson, which ultimately completely supplanted our earlier, and bulkier, cotton version.
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I'm curious as to how you fit mail this closely. Pretty much all of the hauberks and build instructions I've seen are very basic shapes.
Do you have any resources you can point to which document how to build a fitted hauberk? Are the sleeves laced closed in any way?
The major place I can see this being a major issue is with the pointing of the forearm and elbow defences. Is this possibly why we see short sleeved hauberks which go over the upper cannon of the arm defences but under the spaulders? This would allow the forearm defences - arguably the most critical pieces of armour to not have swing around - to point directly to the aketon.
Thanks.
--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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Al Muckart
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| Posted: Thu 27 Apr, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Christian,
| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: |
Thank you very much for your very thorough information. I think Greg knew what the theory was on coode, but may be under the impression that the word's exact meaning is obscure. I'll point him to this thread and perhaps we'll do a little tweaking on the article.
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You're most welcome. Be aware that while I think that information is pretty accurate it is just a brain dump Marc's website has a bunch of properly cited information.
If there's text in that post you feel you can use, go ahead.
--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 27 Apr, 2006 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Jonathan;
With my VERY limited experience wearing armour I can say that with my fitted gambison under the mail the plate vambraces don't seem to want to move or shift at all.
When putting everything on it seems, with my cheap un-tailored maille, the only problem area is under the armpits so one thing I try to do is to pull the full sleeves back a bit before I strap down the vambraces tight so that the maille has some loose in the upper arm region: The tightened down vambrace seems to help keep this looseness in place as opposed to when wearing maille alone the weight of the maille sleeve tends to pull this looseness out.
It's a bit like when wearing a belt with maille, you blouse the maille a bit before tightening the belt, in a way I mean to say you blouse the maille sleeves before tightening the vambraces. This blousing should also be done before tightening a breast and back plate, this is difficult without some help or doing strange stuff like lying down so that the maille shirt isn't being pulled by gravity before one can tighten the B & B plates. Oh, and tucking in the armpit area of the mail shirt so that the B & B plates can be tightened is very challenging without the assistance of another person. I keep having to find such weird & creative tricks when I try to use a new piece of armour for the first time.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Greg Mele
Industry Professional
Location: Chicago, IL USA Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 356
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| Posted: Thu 27 Apr, 2006 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | Al,
Thank you very much for your very thorough information. I think Greg knew what the theory was on coode, but may be under the impression that the word's exact meaning is obscure. I'll point him to this thread and perhaps we'll do a little tweaking on the article.
All the best,
Christian |
Hi all,
I don't normally get a chance to post here, but Christian pointed me here and I'm glad that this article has generated interest - that's what we do these for! This one (and the attending article on the LeGris/Carrouge duel) was great fun to put together,.
I was indeed familiar with the technonology and term, but I wasn't sure if there was really an agreed upon, modern term too use with. WE'll see if we can massage things a bit.
Best,
Greg Mele
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Thu 27 Apr, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Al Muckart wrote: |
I'm curious as to how you fit mail this closely. Pretty much all of the hauberks and build instructions I've seen are very basic shapes.
Do you have any resources you can point to which document how to build a fitted hauberk? Are the sleeves laced closed in any way?
The major place I can see this being a major issue is with the pointing of the forearm and elbow defences. Is this possibly why we see short sleeved hauberks which go over the upper cannon of the arm defences but under the spaulders? This would allow the forearm defences - arguably the most critical pieces of armour to not have swing around - to point directly to the aketon.
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Well Al, my old haubergeon (which was made by Black Prince Chainmaille back in the late 80's) has an angled elbow that allows considerable mobility even under the vambrace. How historic this pattern is, is another matter.
There are definitely configurations like the one you describe - over the rerebrace, but under the spaulder - but there are also effigies showing smooth continuous sleeves beneath the vambraces.
I suspect the proper historic tailoring of such fitted mail garments may still be open to speculation. In any case, the photo I posted shows a configuration that's extremely mobile. Not as much now that I've put some weight on, but still quite workable.
All the best,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Jonathon Janusz
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| Posted: Fri 28 Apr, 2006 4:58 am Post subject: |
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Jean, thanks for your insight. I hadn't thought the plates would, very basically, take the place of some of the garters used in earlier periods; you just get some free additional defense in the deal  .
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Fri 28 Apr, 2006 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| Jonathon Janusz wrote: | | Jean, thanks for your insight. I hadn't thought the plates would, very basically, take the place of some of the garters used in earlier periods; you just get some free additional defense in the deal . |
Thanks, but keep in mind that my comments are based on very minimal experience getting used to wearing armour and my initial observations and conclusions: Long hour of wearing armour while being very active might change my mind about some things and also how often would one have to loosen straps and do some re-adjustments or just deal with discomfort until a long safe break in the " action " permitted minor or major adjustments.
Lots of people here have a huge amount of cumulative hours of wearing armour and they would know from experience what works for long periods of armour wear and what only seems to work when armour has been on for only a small amount of time and just standing around.
Maybe things like not standing in a hot Sun for extended periods of time except in the middle of winter. ( Just guessing from just the experience of getting into a car that's been in the Sun in a parking lot or just touching the bodywork. )
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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