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Don Stanko
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 Posted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone have any stats on the resale value of an Albion vs. other sword manufacturers? If I know I'm going to get most, if not all of my money back if I choose to sell then the price increase may not be so bad. After all, there are many Harley owners who pride themselves on purchasing an investment item. I know I see it that way when I purchase an antique sword.
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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In the rare instances where I've seen them, Albion swords tend to do well on Ebay.
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Jeremiah Swanger
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| Posted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: Curiouser... |
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Out of curiosity, for those who are complaining about the price increase, have you taken into account that Albion is expanding overseas? Do you believe that is an inexpensive venture?
If you do, you clearly haven't tried it.
On another note, in terms of supply and demand, I believe Albion has reached a level of prestige that gives them the leverage to be able to charge more. Their products appear to be selling very well and have recieved nothing less than glowing reviews. All that without mentioning that reproduction arms and armor isn't a booming industry-- it is a niche market at best. Thus, we can only imagine how difficult carving out a living from this business could be...
"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."
- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Jason Elrod
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| Posted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Curiouser... |
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| Jeremiah Swanger wrote: | Out of curiosity, for those who are complaining about the price increase, have you taken into account that Albion is expanding overseas? Do you believe that is an inexpensive venture?
If you do, you clearly haven't tried it.
On another note, in terms of supply and demand, I believe Albion has reached a level of prestige that gives them the leverage to be able to charge more. Their products appear to be selling very well and have recieved nothing less than glowing reviews. All that without mentioning that reproduction arms and armor isn't a booming industry-- it is a niche market at best. Thus, we can only imagine how difficult carving out a living from this business could be... |
To the "average" consumer none of that matters.
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Jonathan Harton
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| Posted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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I plan on buying a sword from Albion within the next six months. I was going to buy one after Christmas and take advantage of the sale, but money issues steped in. I will probobly be picking up a Bayeux and it doesn't make a huge difference to me if I pay $590 or $650. For the quality, the extra money is worth it to keep them going in quality and to get a sword that will likely outlive me. To me, this is like anything, a sword like this is an investment, not just an offhand buy.
The economic world demands price increases at times.
Don't blame Albion, blame China for hogging an increasing majority of steal, and oil for that matter.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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Well, nobody hopes that prices go up for stuff they want, but the extra cost will only slow me down a bit.
As mentioned the swords that become available on the secondary market should get more attention and the occasional sale at Albion may bring the price down to current level for short time periods.
As to custom versus production swords I don't think one would find any wide quality differences, as using swords, between the swords made by Peter Johnsson and those designed by him. Small subtle finish differences might be perceivable and the custom sword would also be forged rather than machine stock removal ? Differential heat treatment plus original design would also be an advantage of custom work. With a fantasy design based on historical / functional criteria even more latitude would give you a unique design.
As an example or question: How much difference is there between the production Tritonia and the handmade one that Peter produced for the museum exhibit ??? Performance wise maybe very little? The production one may have some very minor construction compromises compared to the handmade one, but being in the " museum line " these should be only perceivable by Peter himself.
There is also the pleasure of communicating with a maker for a custom project and having some creative input and maybe getting something one's own theory of what makes an ideal sword: This can be tricky if one insist too hard on some feature or other that the maker recommends against. You don't go to the best surgeon to save your life and then tell him how and where to cut.  
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Mon 06 Feb, 2006 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Jason Elrod wrote: |
Your point about handling properties of Albion swords vs. a custom sword is just one factor of many when comparing production vs. custom and not necessarily the primary reason for someone to go custom or even buy a production sword. |
It is the primary reason for me. 
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Gabriel Lebec
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 07 Feb, 2006 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | As to custom versus production swords I don't think one would find any wide quality differences, as using swords, between the swords made by Peter Johnsson and those designed by him. Small subtle finish differences might be perceivable and the custom sword would also be forged rather than machine stock removal
...How much difference is there between the production Tritonia and the handmade one that Peter produced for the museum exhibit ??? Performance wise maybe very little? |
To clarify my statements, I should stress that my comment was not specifically about Albion / Peter Johnsson, and maybe it was too off-topic in that sense. To the contrary, the line between the Albion Museum Line blades and Peter Johnsson's versions of the same swords does seem blurry and that is a significant achievement on the part of that team. What I was saying however is that there exist cases where a specific custom work is quite simply beyond anything I've ever seen or honestly expect to see in a production or even semiproduction blade, including Albion, but more generally speaking.
A big part of the difference in the way we're thinking about this is over the issue of performance, and maybe that's a product of a western vs. Japanese context. I agree completely with you in that the performance and handling differences between a $1000 "production" western sword vs. a custom western sword are going to be nebulous, subtle, marginal, etc; the best production western swords already seem, from testimony here and elsewhere, to have hit a point of excellence indistinguishable from custom work. (The same is completely untrue for Japanese-style swords, possibly owing to their complexity - dozens of assembled parts, a folded blade with a differential heat treatment, etc., mean that production Japanese-style swords *have* to make compromises. It seems to me, and I welcome any opinions on this subject, that it is significantly easier to produce beautiful and effective western swords via production methods than it is for Japanese-style swords*).
That's not what I was referring to at all, when I was claiming a large gap between production and custom quality; I was talking about the art, the degree of refinement, the fit and finish, the perfection of the individual elements - which perhaps is not as common a focus for western swords as for nihonto, though I see such qualities in the work of Vince Evans, Patrick Bárta, and others. When I say it's not as common a focus, I don't mean that people who enjoy western swords (myself included) don't care about quality in those aspects; but the definition of quality can sometimes be different, as evidenced by Albion's own goal of recreating the period feel of originals.
*Cont. from paragraph 3: ...consider, for example, that the heat treatment for Japanese-style blades causes the blade to change shape, so each blade's shape becomes a matter of hand-guided skill to control and adjust. As a large part of the aesthetics of a Japanese blade lie in its myriad metallurgical activities, the skill of the smith is readily apparent in the quality of those visible elements. Since the geometry and all the edges/ridges are supposed to (by Japanese standards) be extremely sharply defined, and since the finish completely affects the appearance of those metallurgical activities I mentioned, the polish has some very challenging requirements. Thus the gap between production-level ~$1000 Japanese swords and custom swords of $5000-10,000+ is tremendous.
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Martin Wallgren
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| Posted: Tue 07 Feb, 2006 1:25 am Post subject: |
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And there is always the Squireline 
Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 07 Feb, 2006 7:07 am Post subject: |
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Value is extremely subjective and personal. Everyone is entitled to view pricing/value/worth in their own way. Let's not lose sight of that. This back and forth discussion is largely about personal preferences and the value we, as individuals, place on things.
I was shocked when Albion introduced the first round of Next Gens; I was shocked even more by the Museum Line's prices. I thought the prices were on the high side, but that's simply my personal opinion. I have never paid full price for one of their swords. I've bought using introductory pricing, BladeShow discounts, and Round Table party pricing. If they hadn't offered those, I would never have been able to afford what I have. This price increase won't really affect me in the short-term, though, since my large purchase days are over for a while. When I do go back to larger purchases, I'll look more heavily at A&A and others now, unless Albion has a sale.
I love my Regent, but I would never have paid $950 for it. Is it worth $950? Probably to many people; it would be worth that to me if I had that kind of disposable income. But in my financial situation, no sword (custom or production) is worth the kind of sacrifices I'd have to make to get/find that $950. If they raise the price 10%, that makes it $1045, a price range further out of my reach. I'm glad that Albion has filled in the middle tier of pricing with swords like the Crecy and Mercenary (both fantastic values), but a price increase lessens their value a bit, at least in my mind. At less than $600, both were a great value. At more than that, they're still fantastic values, but not quite as great a value in my opinion.
I respect Albion's right to make sure they stay solvent now and grow in the future. I have my own need to stay solvent and perhaps even retire someday, though, and these prices are pushing the envelope for me. Others may not blink at an increase; I'm jealous of those people.
Just my 50 pesos.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Tue 07 Feb, 2006 9:04 am Post subject: |
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Economics 101 in action.
Question:
High demand. Significant backlog of orders. Constrained supply. Limited substitution threats. Desire to increase production capability (we'll just ingore inflation and the value of the dollar for this one).
Answer:
Increase price to new equilibrium. If demand falls and backlog gets taken care of, have a sale to temporarily reduce price to drive demand up again.
Every business does it.
Atrim announced a price increase on this forum yesterday. A&A has announced price changes several times that I can remember. Vendors do it all the time, only the most decent of them bother to warn everyone ahead of time (will be intersting to see if Albion continues to do so). The net effect if prices adjust accross the market? All value propostions change, and depending on the actions of competitors, Albion's value position in the market may not change at all. While this may not be the case for individual consumers, its the market you sell to and some consumer casualties are part of the cost of doing business. In fact I'm pretty sure its something Albion considers in their business plan.
What is impressive to me is that Albion has established enough market and brand recognition in a short time that people care what they are doing. So much attention is focussed on them, but what will make this change a good or bad decision, is cash flow the rest of this year.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
Last edited by Joe Fults on Tue 07 Feb, 2006 3:36 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Tue 07 Feb, 2006 9:07 am Post subject: |
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I know the energy prices are killing everyone, I've never been in a sword shop but from what I have read, I imagine the fuel bill must be enormous. Let alone all those costs of things that some of us may not even think of, maintenance of machinery, insurance costs, lease, everything has gone up.
Someone mentioned the buy six swords in 12 months get the seventh free deal, which I am aware of, but after the initial plunge I made since July, my wife would kill me! I was wondering if Albion could make that a buy 6 in an 18 or 24 month period and get the seventh free?
I know one thing, the cost of living or being in business has increased and if a company is going to survive, well it's a plain fact they have got to raise prices or cut corners and I'd much rather the price goes up.
I'm just now thinking how the homes in our area just went up quite a bit in the last year, of course that is good for me, but the point is, everything has gone up. I guess that's just the fact of life.
Thanks for reading my 2 cents.
Bob
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 07 Feb, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Bob Burns wrote: | | I was wondering if Albion could make that a buy 6 in an 18 or 24 month period and get the seventh free? |
I've seen in a couple places where people have hoped that Albion might adjust their free sword program. Let's face it: Albion doesn't owe us free swords. While I understand the desire and hope that they might make it easier to do so, I think it's kind of an unrealistic expectation. They're a business, the plan to give a free sword is a marketing strategy, pure and simple. I hope they make it easier, too, but if they feel the need to raise prices, I seriously doubt they're going to make it easier to give things away for free.
I agree with Joe. I don't see what the big deal is here. ALL companies raise their prices at some point. It's a fact of life. He mention ATrim and A&A doing it, and while it always sucks to be a buyer and have prices go up, there's no avoiding it, so I don't see why Albion should be an exception to that rule.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Tue 07 Feb, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | I don't see what the big deal is here. ALL companies raise their prices at some point. It's a fact of life. He mention ATrim and A&A doing it, and while it always sucks to be a buyer and have prices go up, there's no avoiding it, so I don't see why Albion should be an exception to that rule. |
I totally agree.
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Jonathan Blair
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| Posted: Tue 07 Feb, 2006 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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My question is this: are the pre-production swords like the Valkyrja, the Munich, and the Knecht going up in price too or are they staying at their current levels?
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Tue 07 Feb, 2006 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Jonathan Blair wrote: | | My question is this: are the pre-production swords like the Valkyrja, the Munich, and the Knecht going up in price too or are they staying at their current levels? |
Only Albion can say for sure, but I imagine the price of those swords will go up as well.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 07 Feb, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Gabriel Lebec"] | Jean Thibodeau wrote: | As to custom versus production swords I don't think one would find any wide quality differences, as using swords, between the swords made by Peter Johnsson and those designed by him. Small subtle finish differences might be perceivable and the custom sword would also be forged rather than machine stock removal
...How much difference is there between the production Tritonia and the handmade one that Peter produced for the museum exhibit ??? Performance wise maybe very little? |
| Quote: | | To clarify my statements, I should stress that my comment was not specifically about Albion / Peter Johnsson, and maybe it was too off-topic in that sense. To the contrary, the line between the Albion Museum Line blades and Peter Johnsson's versions of the same swords does seem blurry and that is a significant achievement on the part of that team. What I was saying however is that there exist cases where a specific custom work is quite simply beyond anything I've ever seen or honestly expect to see in a production or even semiproduction blade, including Albion, but more generally speaking. |
I completely agree that some custom work is at a totally different level of artistry / difficulty / performance ( Less so for this last ) and I was bringing up a very specific example were the difference between custom and high end production swords would be very blurry. Although I would consider a custom sword by Peter very much more desirable than a very good production version.
Just doing my own " clarifying " here. ( No offense intended or taken.   )
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Douglas G.
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| Posted: Tue 07 Feb, 2006 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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Bob!
I find my self needing to stick up for Albion here. I've read your posts on previous topics and am
in the same boat with you regarding spare bucks for swords. So I guess I have to ask, if you weren't
ready to pop before where is the beef now? I truly KNOW my life would be better with a Svante, or
a Berserkr for that matter but can't swing the tare. Cool swords I can't afford increasing in price are
still just cool swords I can't afford. What this means is when I finally have the cash to move I'll
just have to agonize a little longer when picking which sword to buy so second guessing won't
kill me!
Best,
Doug Gentner
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 08 Feb, 2006 6:41 am Post subject: |
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I just got back from a trip to my metal supplier whom I last visited two weeks ago to discover that the price of steel has shot up again (I wish we'd stop giving our manufacturing ability away to China) thanks to huge buy ups by China. Two weeks ago I paid $45 and spare change a sheet. New price .........$76 and change or approximately a 70% increase in price. This volitilty in steel prices due to huge consumtion by China has been going on for two years forget about gas prices. 10%-15% that ain't alot when your paying this much extra for your biggest raw material!
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Jonathan Harton
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| Posted: Wed 08 Feb, 2006 9:16 am Post subject: |
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Mr. Harton's solution to primary major world economic problems.......nuke China!
or, for the more civil minded, reinstitute western control on Chinese markets like the 19th C. = oil, steal, outsourcing, etc problems solved.
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