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Billy H
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 Posted: Thu 26 Jan, 2006 12:06 pm Post subject: Chainmail |
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Been looking for chainmail on the Net. I jus need a mostly costume piece. I came across blackened chainmail. Is there any historical reference to this?
Were There any "rustproofing" technologies then?
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Thu 26 Jan, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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What you want is "natural" black/dark mail. It should not be "metalic" black, or galvanized grey, or stainless shiny.
Just plain, boring metal colour. 
Blueing metal was heard of, and done to helmets and, later, plate armour. But I doubt it was done with mail.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Thu 26 Jan, 2006 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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There is a nice yahoo group for maille (never use the word chain, it is an obsolete and incorrect victorian era term)its name is rivetedmaille.
It provides info o authentic style riveted mail.
Burnishing is quite period, even if I guess their means were simpler, I have heard of olive oil sprayed on red hot maille, todat somebody obtained good results with cooking oil and a bbq grill.
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Alexander Ren
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| Posted: Thu 26 Jan, 2006 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruno Giordan wrote: | | (never use the word chain, it is an obsolete and incorrect victorian era term)its name is rivetedmaille. |
Billy,
This discussion goes into some detail on some of the history of maille (or mail both terms seem somewhat interchangable) such as the origins of terminology, construction and other helpful facts. http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...nked+rings
I believe that a lot of historical maille was actually iron which develops a very nice looking dark patina. Someone with more metallurcical knowledge should comment on this since I have very limited experience.
Alex
"The more you sweat in practice, the less you bleed in battle."
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Aaron Schneiker
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| Posted: Fri 27 Jan, 2006 6:46 am Post subject: |
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I don't mean to steal the topic away from Billy, but I have a somewhat follow on question.
I've noticed that in some armour reviews that I have seen, when butted mail is used it is looked down upon as not being correct. Was there a distinct time period when butted mail was no longer used, replaced with riveted? What are the time periods where butted mail prevailed. I would have to believe that even in the hayday of riveted mail there was still plenty of butted mail. It still offered great protection and takes a fraction of the time to make, not to mention cost! Just wanted to know the basis behind some of those comments.
As for rustproofing, I don't believe there were any processes done to the actual metal to accomplish this. Just good maintenence on the part of the owner. Keeping it well oiled with the occasional sand roll to remove any beginning rust. Perhaps some sort of coating was applied (wax / animal fat / ?), no basis for this, just some things that might have worked?
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Fri 27 Jan, 2006 7:08 am Post subject: |
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There was never a time when butted mail was used on the battlefield. The earliest extant examples of European mail are all riveted.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 27 Jan, 2006 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schneiker wrote: | I don't mean to steal the topic away from Billy, but I have a somewhat follow on question.
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If you don't mean to steal the topic away, then don't steal it away.  If your question isn't directly related to his (and in this case, it isn't) please feel free to post it in its own thread. It'll help keep both discussion lines on-topic and may generate better, more targeted responses for both.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Billy H
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| Posted: Fri 27 Jan, 2006 7:11 am Post subject: |
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Aaron, No worries as I'd like to hear the answers to those questions as well.
Are there any websites that would detail how to care for maille?
Anyone think that sometype of spray silicone would work? I know it's not authentic just thought it may work well.
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 27 Jan, 2006 7:27 am Post subject: |
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I'll definately defer to someone who has more historical evidence then I, but I've never seen a reference to blackened mail, and it probably is because of the fact that when you wear it the rings rub together, thereby rubbing the blackening off in short time.
I mostly agree with Dan's comment that butted mail was never used, if we confine that specifically to pre-Victorian Europe. There are examples of 19th century Persian mail garments that were butted, but keep in mind this is long after mail would really be necessary, so it didn't functionally matter. I believe forms of Japanese armour used butted links to hold certain plates together, though this would cover a very small area, and the padding underneath these areas was the real armour in this case.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Dominic Dellavalle
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| Posted: Fri 27 Jan, 2006 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| Billy H wrote: | Are there any websites that would detail how to care for maille?
Anyone think that sometype of spray silicone would work? I know it's not authentic just thought it may work well. |
Billy, as for care of a maille suit a lot will depend upon what you end up using for raw material. Personally I have 5 hauberks and perhaps a half dozen coifs at home currently that I've built over the years and they all have various care requirements. I'm sure there are several sites that outline a "how to" care for maille, but below is just some of the information I've come across from either other maille enthusiasts or first hand experience. I've covered the most common materials I've worked with and can comment on.
The most time consuming to maintain will be mild steel of any sort. There are no rust inhibitors here so oiling regularly will be needed, even if its just hanging around the house. Between the moisture in the air and any sweat from when you wear it you'll begin to see rust almost immediately. Even with oiling a good sanding will be needed from time to time as well. You can accomplish this manually with a good sized pail filled with play sand that you just roll around the yard. Alternatively you can also put the maille in a heavy duty sack or duffel bag that is filled with play sand and sealed. Just toss that in a dryer with no heat for a while to get a nice tumbling effect. Be forewarned with the dryer method that you can damage the dryer from the weight of the mailing flinging around and also no matter how well you seal the bag you can have sand leak out.
In the long run I honestly don't suggest this medium.
What I would suggest you look for and what I generally use for most of my work is galvanized steel. With galvanized steel you remove a tremendous amount of work when it comes to rust prevention and maintainance. Honestly I have 3 suits done in galvanized that have been worn from hot humid days to pouring rain and besides towling them off have done little else. Over time the grey color that is associated with galvanized steel has taken on an almost dark pewter look that I really like. I'm still trying to find a way to prematurely age rings to look that way but no luck so far.
As with mild steel an occasional trip through a sand barrel doesn't hurt. Beyond that all you need to do is dry it off it has gotten substantially wet and occasionally if you want to you can give it a light coat of oil. Just don't oil it before you put it through a trip in the sand barrel
Aside from galvanized steel you can also look into a suit made of aluminum. I've only made one hauberk out of aluminum to date for someone that wanted the look of maille without the weight. Aluminum is only about 1/3 of the weight of steel so for those that are acting or just wearing it for show, as opposed to historical accuracy, aluminum has appeal. Additionally with aluminum there is little maintence since it does not rust like steel. However, aluminum can and will oxidize. Over time the lustre can dull out and you begin to find a black buildup on the rings (and your clothes, and your hands, and your face and just about anything else that touches the maille). Think of a house that has had aluminum siding up for years upon years.
Again if you are looking for historical accuracy aluminum is definately not the path to take. However again if you are just getting it for costume wear and can live with the fact that it is not accurate material wise this may be an alternative for you. If nothing else the lack of weight is appreciated by your back. Price wise you will generally see an increase from galvanized steel to aluminum simply because raw material is more expensive.
Moving on the only other material I have worked with is stainless steel. Stainless is one of those materials that is appealing to the eye in looks (at least me personally) and also again has little upkeep. Due to the alloy composition of stainless steel is the least likely to ever stain, rust or tarnish. This is provided that the stainless wire used is of good quality. I only have a coif of stainless steel, although at some point I would like to make a full hauberk. Nonetheless, it has been worn, sat on my coffee table, and endured a 3 month exile in a rather humid basement while my wife and I unpacked boxes in our new home. Besides giving it a pass here and there with a duster I have done nothing else and it still looks like it did when it was finished.
Stainless provides probably the least upkeep out of all of these but at the same time is the priciest as well. Additionally it has the same weight as any other steel so you be prepared for that as well.
What it all boils down to is that most maille can be maintained with minimal effort (well except mild steel). Light oiling and a sand bath will usually cover most made of any sort of metal that has a rusting tendency and for the others just keeping it cleaned and dry is all I can suggest. Oh and before I forget...be mindful of what type of oil you use on your suit. Ideally stay away from anything that is highly flammable (wd-40 for instance).
Hopefuly all the above provided you with some helpful insight into the wonderful world of maille. Might I also suggest that when doing your research perhaps considering the idea of doing it yourself? From your post you want a costume piece so I'm guessing having rivetted maille isn't that crucial. If you are just going for a basic butted maille suit you can certainly do it yourself. Some rings, a pair of pliers, dedication, and a lot of time leads to a finished suit, learning a new skill, and a sense of accompolishment. Just a thought from a maille addict....I mean hobbyist.
Really, I can put the pliers down any time I want to. It's just that right now I don't want to..
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Philip C. Ryan
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| Posted: Fri 27 Jan, 2006 9:25 am Post subject: |
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I can agree with that as well. Non-riveted mail is like a half finished armor. To be its most effective, the riveting (or welding) shut of the links is integeral (along with the padded undergarment underneath, of course). While there are a few examples of butted maile, most, if not all, of these are relegated to display pieces, or pieces of armor that were not very integral to the whole suit of armor.
As far as blackening, silicone, or any other sort of coating to mail.....I would advise against it. When the rings rub together through normal wear, you tend to get chips, rubs, and scratches in that pretty finish. Then, you have all these thousands of links that are half bare metal and half bad finish job...ends up looking very bad (warned a friend about this once...he did not listen...a month or so later, he was complaining about how shabby his byrnie looked and asking me how to fix it  ). I would advise using a good mild steel and let it naturally darken over time. As was stated, just roll it around in a barrel of sand periodically, and maybe wipe (spray?) it down occasionally with a good light oil.
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Billy H
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| Posted: Fri 27 Jan, 2006 11:54 am Post subject: |
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WOW! Thanks for taking the time to type all that out Dominic. It really helps. While the first suit wil be for costume i do plan to get a really nice set as well. In browsing the net I've sen mild steel, blackened steel, galvanized steel, and others but just wasn't sure what was good or no.
I guess I didn't explain the silicone right. What I meant was a spray like you spray on leather to protect it.
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Fri 27 Jan, 2006 11:57 am Post subject: |
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Pour heated olive oil on rusting mail, it will be blackened the old way.
Blackening assumes a rusty piece.
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Billy H
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| Posted: Fri 27 Jan, 2006 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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How heated would the oil need to be?
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 27 Jan, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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The two nicest places I've seen in the states to buy mail are:
http://www.forth-armoury.com/
http://www.historicenterprises.com/
The mail sold by both places is very similar, if not the same. They are leaps and bounds better in quality when compared to any other mass produced mail. They are also as close to historically accurate as you can get on the mass market without going custom (which will cost a LOT). These are made of iron, yet they are comparable in weight, and sometimes lighter than a typical aluminum butted shirt. This is because butted mail needs to be thicker to keep from coming undone from its own weight, whereas the rivetted pieces can use a much thinner piece of metal.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Fri 27 Jan, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | I'll definately defer to someone who has more historical evidence then I, but I've never seen a reference to blackened mail, and it probably is because of the fact that when you wear it the rings rub together, thereby rubbing the blackening off in short time.
I mostly agree with Dan's comment that butted mail was never used, if we confine that specifically to pre-Victorian Europe. There are examples of 19th century Persian mail garments that were butted, but keep in mind this is long after mail would really be necessary, so it didn't functionally matter. I believe forms of Japanese armour used butted links to hold certain plates together, though this would cover a very small area, and the padding underneath these areas was the real armour in this case. |
I didn't say it was never used. I said it was never used on the battlefield and I specifically limited my statement to European mail. I agree that some butted mail was used for non-combat purposes and I agree that some Japanese weaves were butted. Some styles of mail and plates also used butted mail, such as the bronze/brass Moro examples.
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 27 Jan, 2006 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | I didn't say it was never used. I said it was never used on the battlefield and I specifically limited my statement to European mail. I agree that some butted mail was used for non-combat purposes and I agree that some Japanese weaves were butted. Some styles of mail and plates also used butted mail, such as the bronze/brass Moro examples. |
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you didn't know, because I knew you did. You know a whole lot more about the subject than I do. I merely meant to expand and add to what you said, not to contradict it.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Wed 01 Feb, 2006 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| Billy H wrote: | | How heated would the oil need to be? |
In my area farmers use to preserve old artifacts (eg century old sickles) simply by fryng some oil in a pan and then by pouring it on the items. Others boil exhaust motor oil (non - historical).
In both cases the item gets blackened, protected and antique looking .
Even if you leave in non -hot olive oil lightly rusted objects for some time, even minutes in many cases, light rust will go away gently while pieces will be longly protected.
Olive oil is a powerful, age old de-ruster and blackening agent, I have seen my granny derusting tools this way years ago.
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