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Frank Lochocki




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PostPosted: Fri 27 Jan, 2006 5:40 am    Post subject: Need opinions on the earliest date for the sallet/bevor         Reply with quote

I have an interest regards the earliest date the sallet/bevor combination was worn. Does anyone have an opinion?
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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Sat 28 Jan, 2006 10:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No later than 1430 in France. The 'celata' form shows up much earlier, though, in artwork if not in surviving examples, as do plate bevors of various sorts, especially in Spain, but also showing up in an English illustration of the 14th c. More information and pictures forthcoming when I can get to it.
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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Mon 30 Jan, 2006 8:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's an early celata - like helmet from a 'Slaughter of the Innocents' from Italy, c. 1340. This is just one example in art that I've stumbled across over the years; few soldiers are portrayed wearing them, but they're around.


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1340 Innocents.jpg


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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Tue 31 Jan, 2006 3:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a French image dated 1430 - see Claude Blair, 'European Armour', p. 201, for a closeup. The nose peeking out is a frequent feature in the art.


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salade avec baviere 1430.jpg


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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Wed 01 Feb, 2006 2:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm at work at the moment so I don't have any references handy, but I'm pretty sure that the oldest surviving sallets date to 1430ies. I'm pretty sure that there is a sallet in an English church that dates to about 1440. I don't know about bevors though.

I think with celatas we are on thinner ice. Judging by its appearence the celata seems to have evolved from the bascinet, but when does it stop being a bascinet and become a celata? I think what complicates this further is that the 2 were probably used side by side for a few decades. AFAIK bascinets were still being used in the 1440ies when both sallets and celatas were definitely around.

Thanks for those excellent pics of celatas/bascinets BTW.

In fact thanks for all the pics, they're really interesting. Happy
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Wolfgang Armbruster





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PostPosted: Wed 01 Feb, 2006 2:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting, so the celata is the missing link between the bascinet and the sallet? I heard that the sallet evolved from the kettle-hat. *confused*
However, what is that thing hanging from the celata in the slaughter of inncoents pic? WTF?!
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Frank Lochocki




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PostPosted: Wed 01 Feb, 2006 7:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gentlemen, thank you very much for your replies, I do appriciate all of your research.
Would I then be safe in saying that the sallet/bevor combination could have been worn by some French men-at-arms during the Orleans Campaign of 1429?
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Wed 01 Feb, 2006 7:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wolfgang Armbruster wrote:
Interesting, so the celata is the missing link between the bascinet and the sallet? I heard that the sallet evolved from the kettle-hat. *confused*
However, what is that thing hanging from the celata in the slaughter of inncoents pic? WTF?!


Well, it should be rather self-evident since the sallet shows a shape far more akin to that of the bascinet than to the kettle-hat
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PostPosted: Wed 01 Feb, 2006 7:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wolfgang Armbruster wrote:
Interesting, so the celata is the missing link between the bascinet and the sallet? I heard that the sallet evolved from the kettle-hat. *confused*


I don't think it's as clear cut and dry as that (as always seemst to be the case). There are many kettle hats that started to evolve to come down to develop a visor which begin to look very much like the sallet, and there are also these celetas which seem to bridge the gap between sallet and bascinet. It's quite reasonable to guess that there wasn't only one specific helmet that the sallet developed from, then.

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Fabrice Cognot
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PostPosted: Wed 15 Feb, 2006 6:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Frank Lochocki wrote:
Gentlemen, thank you very much for your replies, I do appriciate all of your research.
Would I then be safe in saying that the sallet/bevor combination could have been worn by some French men-at-arms during the Orleans Campaign of 1429?


Definitely.

Sallets (Salades) are mentionned in Duke Hohn the Fearless' inventory in 1419/1420 - and others are mentionned in his financial accounts earlier even.

Bevors are pictured in the Grand Armorial Equestre de la Toison d'Or, which was made between 1425 and 1430.

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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jun, 2006 12:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was in the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds today, and I saw 2 helmets which made me think of this thread. Click on the thumbnails please:

A Milanese sallet dated 1440-1450:


A Venetian-style sallet of the same approximate date:


Please excuse the quality. My camera isn't all that good.

I also saw a book in the museum shop on the Rhodes armours (which I didn't buy), but it had a few pictures of early 15th century sallets and bevors.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jun, 2006 12:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wolfgang Armbruster wrote:
Interesting, so the celata is the missing link between the bascinet and the sallet? I heard that the sallet evolved from the kettle-hat. *confused*
However, what is that thing hanging from the celata in the slaughter of inncoents pic? WTF?!


Well the German style of sallet does look a lot like an elongated and less symmetrical kettlehat: Some eyeslot kettle hats and some fixed integral visor sallet look like close cousins to me.

The Italian styles of celata, bascinet and some barbutes seemed similar in many ways: Variants of the same basic shapes but sufficiently different that one can usually tell one from the other at a glance.

Different origins arriving at similar shapes ? Evolution ? All 3 could be found in use at the same time with the bascinet becoming obsolete or out of fashion first ?

( Edited: Oh, one of the celata above does look more like a barbuta to me which may also be considered a type of celata ? Confused )

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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Fri 30 Jun, 2006 3:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was just thinking about this statement:

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:
Here's a French image dated 1430 - see Claude Blair, 'European Armour', p. 201, for a closeup. The nose peeking out is a frequent feature in the art.


That first sallet I posted (The Milanese export sallet) has very short visor, so the nose would presumably be visible on the wearer. I was wondering if this is the same kind of sallet depicted on that picture dated 1430 posted by James A. Gillaspie.
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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Jun, 2006 7:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That 'Burgundian' salade in the RA would indeed look very similar with a bevor, but here's one in Paris that is dated to c. 1430.


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Frank Lochocki




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PostPosted: Thu 10 Aug, 2006 7:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Mr. Gillaspie: Thanx very much for your unselfish research. The photo you posted c. 1430 is tremendous! It will virtually win a long standing friendly argument regards this topic, and win a small wager as well. Thanx again!
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Christian Henry Tobler
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PostPosted: Thu 10 Aug, 2006 9:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:
That 'Burgundian' salade in the RA would indeed look very similar with a bevor, but here's one in Paris that is dated to c. 1430.


Hi James!

How do we know this dating is accurate? The reason I ask is that I've really come to be leary of dates assigned to artifacts/manuscripts/etc. from researching swordsmanship treatises.

All the best,

Christian

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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Thu 10 Aug, 2006 9:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Something to keep in mind - the tail of the 1430 salade is round like a 'barbute', not pointed as in the German style. This seems to be characteristic of French salades. The 'burgundian' has a tail that narrows, but doesn't come to a point, either.
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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Thu 10 Aug, 2006 9:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian, I had quite a set-to with Jean-Pierre Reverseau, the curator of armour at the Army Museum in Paris when I was there about the helmet in question, and he wasn't budging. My own belief is that it could be later (the crest influences me in that direction), but the pictorial evidence is abundant, and the later salades don't look noticeably different than the earlier.
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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Thu 10 Aug, 2006 6:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P.S. The associated bevor is another matter, and it looks later to me. We didn't discuss it, however.
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Christian Henry Tobler
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PostPosted: Thu 10 Aug, 2006 7:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, I can buy that James. The bevor is what was bugging me the most.

Take care,

Christian

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