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Kenton Spaulding




Location: Connecticut
Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Reading list: 12 books

Posts: 287

PostPosted: Mon 02 Jan, 2006 4:24 pm    Post subject: Looking for pictures         Reply with quote

Good evening everyone,

I'm on the verge of purchasing my first Albion, a Gaddhjalt (90% sure, but haven't ruled out the Senlac and Reeve quite yet) and was wondering if any Gaddhjalt owners had pictures of their swords dressed in any color besides black or brown. I don't believe that black was a common dye in the viking period (correct me if I am mistaken) so will probably avoid a black grip. For some reason it seems that some swords work better with some colors, while others look better in other colors. If anybody does happen to have pictures available I would absolutely love to see them. I already sent an email to Mike at Albion, and unfortunately he didn't have any available.

I've been trying to convince myself for the past few days that I wanted a Reeve (because of the price) but I just don't think I can pass up that intimidatingly huge blade on the Gaddhjalt. It's just so darn imposing. The Senlac made this decision tough too. I see the Senlac as a pretty intimidating blade as well, while being just a bit "handier" then the Gaddhjalt (again correct me if I am wrong). The deciding factor here became the more unique brazil nut pommel vs. the more conventional wheel. Anybody who would like to chime in on behalf of any of these three swords please do, I would love the input.

Happy New Year,

Kenton
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Jan, 2006 4:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kenton,
Unfortunately, all the pics in our albums and in the review are with a black grip. Even the antiqued one in Steve Maly's collection has a black grip. I did a Google image search and didn't return any non-black ones. A search of the forums yielded no pics, though Steve Fabert mentioned he had one with, I believe an oxblood grip. Maybe he'll chime in.

Happy

ChadA

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Jan, 2006 4:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Looking for pictures         Reply with quote

Kenton Spaulding wrote:
I don't believe that black was a common dye in the viking period (correct me if I am mistaken) so will probably avoid a black grip.


This is a topic that's very interesting to me: that of period-correct dyes and other treatments. I've been interested in this subject for many years, since having an interest in the study of historical clothing.

I'm very curious on what you are basing your conclusion of the use of dye in the Viking Age. More than that, I'm wondering if anybody can point me to published sources about this sort of thing.

Fascinating stuff!

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Kenton Spaulding




Location: Connecticut
Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Reading list: 12 books

Posts: 287

PostPosted: Mon 02 Jan, 2006 5:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am certainly no expert on dyes, and to be honest, I don't remember what I am basing my judgement on. I remember reading a few months ago when I was working on some viking age clothing that true black was a color to avoid in that time period. I believe they said it was very uncommon and expensive, now that I think about it, not that it was totally non existent. If this is true, perhaps since a sword in and of itself is an expensive item, a more expensive dye would not be out of the question. I suppose there is a great difference between using an expensive dye on a small bit of leather, and using an expensive dye on an average working mans trousers. To be honest, I'm not sure of the authority of this source either, I believe it was on a living history groups web site, not published in a book. In short, I know next to nothing on the subject, but am quite interested. Hopefully somebody here does know of some documented scholarly evidence pointing one way or the other.

Best wishes,

Kenton
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Jan, 2006 5:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Though not dyed by Albion, here is a chocolate brown grip.

Sorry for the bad photo.



 Attachment: 16.94 KB
browngadd.jpg


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Kenton Spaulding




Location: Connecticut
Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Reading list: 12 books

Posts: 287

PostPosted: Mon 02 Jan, 2006 5:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the picture Nathan. Also I managed to find this one in red. http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...alt+joseph These at least give me an idea, thanks again. If I can only decide on a grip color I should be making that long awaited call tomorrow!
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Jan, 2006 7:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i know in 15thc reenactment we dont use black cause of the dye. real dyed black is more like a dark grey after jsut a lil while. richer blacks were way to expensive.
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Cole Sibley




Location: Montana, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Jan, 2006 8:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I suppose it doesn't help Nathan much, but I have also read that medieval period black dyes (no personal knowledge of earlier migration era stuff) were not particularly 'black', but much more washed out; this from a second-hand discussion gleened from the firestryker forums some time ago, will see if I can remember exactly where.

On a personal experience note, I believe that dyeing leather might in fact be easier to accomplish a real black than dyeing linen.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Jan, 2006 2:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, it's been awhile since I've read about this sort of thing, but my own thoughts are that black was a common color for dying. It was generally not a neutral black, but rather a dark shade of another color. Tannis and other materials, including human urine, was used to darken colors. Iron was used to create black as well. Too much of it would cause fabrics to break down, but leather is much more tolerant of this. I vaguely remember that Oak was used somehow to create black and that pools of blackened liquid can often be found naturally forming near Oak trees from a chemical reaction of the breakdown of the bark and/or leaves. I likely have the details wrong, but this is off the top of my head at nearly 3am.
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Jesse Frank
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Location: Tallahassee, Fl
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Jan, 2006 6:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, I use vinegar with iron dissolved in it for a black dye on veg tanned leather. Works like a champ.
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Kenton Spaulding




Location: Connecticut
Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Reading list: 12 books

Posts: 287

PostPosted: Tue 03 Jan, 2006 1:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To quell my excited mind, I will tell you all that I did finally make the long awaited call to Albion today, ordering a Gaddhjalt. After much thought I finally decided to try it out in magenta. I am super excited, can't wait to have that baby in my grubby little mits!

Thanks for all the input thus far, I would still like to hear anything anybody has to add on period appropriate grip colors.

Happy

Kenton
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Reading list: 46 books

Posts: 936

PostPosted: Tue 03 Jan, 2006 2:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Well, it's been awhile since I've read about this sort of thing, but my own thoughts are that black was a common color for dying. It was generally not a neutral black, but rather a dark shade of another color. Tannis and other materials, including human urine, was used to darken colors. Iron was used to create black as well. Too much of it would cause fabrics to break down, but leather is much more tolerant of this. I vaguely remember that Oak was used somehow to create black and that pools of blackened liquid can often be found naturally forming near Oak trees from a chemical reaction of the breakdown of the bark and/or leaves. I likely have the details wrong, but this is off the top of my head at nearly 3am.


thanks Happy
althought human urine is used to bleech, not to darken.

ug 3 am ehhehe i was up till at least 2 last night cause of the bloody WVU game. go mountaineers!
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Jan, 2006 3:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chuck Russell wrote:
althought human urine is used to bleech, not to darken.

Chuck, it is used to darken dyes and make near black. I've seen it done before on wool. Urine was a common ingredent for many dark colors.

Quote:
Swer swarcz varb machen welle, der nem aychephel vnd stozze die wol ze puluer vnd alaun dar vnder vnd siude das in perchweis mit alaun vnd in harn vnd verb da mit; wil er tunchel machen, so mische swarcz varb dar vnder.

Whoever wants to make black dye, he takes oak galls and pulverizes them and adds alum thereto and boils it in a skillful way with alum and in urine and dyes therewith; if he wants to make it darker, add black dye thereto.

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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Reading list: 46 books

Posts: 936

PostPosted: Tue 03 Jan, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Chuck Russell wrote:
althought human urine is used to bleech, not to darken.

Chuck, it is used to darken dyes and make near black. I've seen it done before on wool. Urine was a common ingredent for many dark colors.

Quote:
Swer swarcz varb machen welle, der nem aychephel vnd stozze die wol ze puluer vnd alaun dar vnder vnd siude das in perchweis mit alaun vnd in harn vnd verb da mit; wil er tunchel machen, so mische swarcz varb dar vnder.

Whoever wants to make black dye, he takes oak galls and pulverizes them and adds alum thereto and boils it in a skillful way with alum and in urine and dyes therewith; if he wants to make it darker, add black dye thereto.


really? never heard of it. ive always heard of using urine to bleech linen white. hmmmmmmmm....
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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
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Reading list: 46 books

Posts: 936

PostPosted: Tue 03 Jan, 2006 3:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.rotten.com/library/medicine/bodily...ical-uses/

seems we were both correct. i had never heard of urine to darken something before. learn something kewl everyday
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Jan, 2006 4:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chuck Russell wrote:
http://www.rotten.com/library/medicine/bodily-functions/pissing/practical-uses/

seems we were both correct. i had never heard of urine to darken something before. learn something kewl everyday


Partially Happy Yeah, you were right when you said it was used to bleach. I think all us living history guys have done that before either intentionally or not. Haha.. but saying it wasn't used to darken wasn't right. It's important that when making absolute statements like that, you make sure you know. One thing being fact does not mean that another is false.

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Chuck Russell




Location: WV
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
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Posts: 936

PostPosted: Tue 03 Jan, 2006 5:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

ah now i see what you mean (rereading my post) i didnt mean absolute, i never do that Wink the post is to say "i thought human urine is used to bleech, not to darken." i have such horrible spelling and typing. sorry about that.
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