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Anton de Vries
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 Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: |
I hope to see that happen... any thoughts on what/when (for your kit)?
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Gambison. A mix of plate and mail for WMA practice, with plenty of room for variety.
Mail shirt, plate legs, plate arms, spaulders, helmet gauntlets.
Breastplate (just for the sake of completeness: I don't like them) and a bunch of extra vambraces, elbows, knees, gauntlets, helmets etc.
I actually prefer stainless as it doesn't need maintenance.
A week or two of vinegar and salt will make it look like neglected normal steel. Shiny armor isn't my thing.
Some 'normal' clothes so I won't look too much out of place in case I want to do WMA demos and possibly even some reenactment.
Turnshoes, hose, shirt, tunic, hood (I love hoods and will probably wear it all the time in daily life).
Simple plain stuff. I may try my hand at making some of it, especially the shoes, if I can find the time.
I'm not an 'authenti-nazi' (love that expression) and I don't mind machine sewing, zippers, velcro, stainless, kevlar, carbonfiber, tachyon forcefields and whatnot, as long as it can't be seen.
Money sucks so I'll have to start simple, but I want to expand it slowly so I'll be able to cover a large time period by equipment mix and match, say 11th-15th century. That will take 'some' time though...
The plan is to order some basic things next week, and if I can talk some fool into buying my bike I'll actually have enough cash for sorta complete armor too. And I really need another sword. *Moan* 
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Stephen Hand
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Stephen Hand
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Anton de Vries wrote: | | The other issue can be categorised as 'gut feeling', as I don't believe there's actual proof for it....it's all *too* brand new, shiny and clean. |
This is one of my pet hates in re-enactment. We see artifacts that are hundreds of years old, so we subconsciously register new versions of them as somehow being wrong. Everything was new once. When people artificially "age" items I just want to throttle them. We are re-enacting the period when this stuff was made, not pretending that we just raided a museum exhibit. If you want stuff that looks well worn, then wear it, but above all, don't be frightened of shiny, clean, new items (historical inaccuracies like galvanised wire excepted of course).
I'm personally very fond of a look where some of your kit is well worn and other parts are brand new. This to me is very realistic.
Cheers
Stephen
Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield
Stoccata School of Defence
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Hand wrote: | | Elling Polden wrote: | | My kit, as per august. |
Dear Elling,
Great looking kit, but the modern boots stand out like the proverbial dog's bollocks. Good quality, accurate, reasonably priced shoes are available from places like Revival Clothing.
Cheers
Stephen |
I have period shoes. This picture is from a skirmish training event, and running around in the shrub in thin leather soles are not something modern feet appreciate.
But, alas, it's the only full body pose picture I've got of the kit.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | Aaron,
I love poto-great helms like this one from Medieval Reproductions.
Something like this would look great with this kit. |
I agree fully, with the other coif. One of these is high on my list of to-do's... that's why I bought Lord Peddinghaus... I think I can manage to hammer this one out reasonably well... at least, with some preliminary work, there's some promise for success. I'll probably go through a bunch of propane in '06.
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Stephen Hand
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | Aaron,
I love proto-great helms like this one from Medieval Reproductions.
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I like these helmets too, but the one in the picture just looks completely wrong. Images of such helms (with or without face plates) show them wider at the top than at the brow line. This seems weird, and most people I know who've made made such helmets have made them with straight sides (as above). This is another case where you just need to put aside what you think you know and make it like the pictures. I have a pot helm with a nasal which tapers about 7 or 8% from top to bottom (the main plate is shaped like a section of a cone). It looks like historical illustrations, but it also sits over my padded coif, completely stable, without any form of strap or lacing. An earlier version I made with straight sides looked like a saucepan, and was almost impossible to keep stable on my head, regardless of straps and lacing.
Whenever I deviate from historical design I regret it, because oddly enough they knew what they were doing.
Cheers
Stephen
Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield
Stoccata School of Defence
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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There has been a good deal of discussion around building kits. During these discussions, elements concerning buying vs. making vs. buying with intent to work to improve/alter the piece have come up. To help give more information on what's "invested" in this kit, here's a summary:
Soft kit:
Braies - I sewed these in linen, using an old pair as a pattern. $10, 1 hr.
Wool chausses - I sewed these in wool, using an old pair as a pattern. $10, 1 hr.
Shirt - I sewed this in linen - again, using an existing one as a pattern. $15, 1.5 hr.
Boots - low boots from Revival Clothing. $75.
Leather pouch - I made my own pattern and fashioned this one myself... $5, 2 hr.
Belt - from Historic Enterprises. $40.
Soft kit total - $155, 5.5 hours.
Military garments:
Surcoat & cloak: $125, 15 hours.
Armour:
Maille (hauberk, chausses, 2 coifs): I made everything in it's entirety, starting from 1 mile of galvanized electric fence wire. $120, ~ 400 hours.
Kettle helm: Unknown, since it's not actually mine, but retails for $175, I think.
Shield: Made myself, $35, 5 hrs.
Armour total - $330, 400+ hrs. 
Arms:
Albion Next Gen Ritter: $680
Spear: Unsure of maker, estimated retail including shaft - $90, 1/2 hr.
Scabbard for Ritter: I made myself - $50, 15-20 hrs.
Arms total:
$820, ~20 hrs.
So... adding all this up, that yields $1430, and ballpark 440 hours - 11 full work weeks.
Future work will involve some minor sewing (1 hour max, free scraps), forging and fitting a dagger (estimate 20 hours, $50), and making a replacement for my out-of-period belt ($20, estimate 10 hours). If I make the proto-barrel helm like Patrick posted, I'm guessing 20-40 hours, $40 materials?
One thing to remember though - I already have the anvil, materials to make stakes and mandrels with, the forge is being rebuilt, sander, grinder, drill press, sewing machine... all of these tools are available at any time, no waiting, no expense. I also have a job that has a lot of down time, so I can work on some of this stuff (like weaving maille) while I am "working". No, it's not a government job... this isn't your tax dollars hard at work! It's putting mom and dad's sacrifice to put me through college to good use. 
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Chuck Russell
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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from a galaxie far far away from a time before i knew better and did research..... ehhehehe (i'm in the black)
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Jared Smith
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Congratulations Aaron.
Very nice work. I envy your skill and courage to undertake the mail! I hope to have a similar kit myself someday (after my kids go through college!)
I also appreciate your detailing the estimate of what it all took as one who is quallified by having actually done so much of it himself (as well as demonstrating good capability in your other posts such as the scabbard making projects.)
I would claim that in today's prices your kit has an approximate economic value of $10,000 U.S. (assumming you value your labor at somewhere around $20 per hour as a versatile but skilled "apprentice level" craftsman..... no offense intended/ compliments very intended.) With practice you could undoubtedly produce things faster, but then I would say your labor would be worth more per hour....! This cost is relatively consistent with estimates (yes some of them by game producers) that I found when attempting to research costs for equipping a basic foot soldier in medieval times. If you plan to go on and acquire a horse, pay for training, and equip a retinue...your pocket book has my condolences!
I fully support the helm choice too. I hate the constriction, discomfort, and limitation of vision from helms. You have enough to share that being able to communicate with the public is an admirable priority.
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Jared Smith wrote: | | ...I would claim that in today's prices your kit has an approximate economic value of $10,000 U.S. (assumming you value your labor at somewhere around $20 per hour as a versatile but skilled "apprentice level" craftsman..... no offense intended/ compliments very intended.).... |
Exactly the sort of thing that I had in mind. Patrick and Aaron may not have huge $$$ invested in their kit projects, but the economic value is something else, entirely. Of course, there is more to the equation than economic value. I suspect that Patrick and Aaron each feel a sense of accomplishment far in excess of monetary value.
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Patrick Fitzmartin
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Greetings All, I ran into Aaron and his friend John at TRF this year. I probaly would not have seen them if it wasn't for their kits.  I was thinking "Gee, check these guys out" as they were walking towards me when all of a sudden "Hey I know you!" I have done TRF for quite a few years now and they were hot. Somebody was wanting a picture every time we turned around. They brew some fine mead too. Sincerely, Patrick Fitzmartin
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Jared Smith wrote: | | Very nice work. I envy your skill and courage to undertake the mail! I hope to have a similar kit myself someday (after my kids go through college!) |
Thanks, Jared!
In all honesty, the armour was the easy part. This project probably saw the 700,000th ring I've ever put in place... and yeah, I friggin' HATE weaving maille.  I stink as a tailor... that was horrid. I had good guidance, though, on the surcoat and cloak... semi-pro seamstress had some good pointers. I could do it myself now, without a babysitter, but nowhere nearly as fast as she could have pulled one off herself.
| Jared Smith wrote: | | I also appreciate your detailing the estimate of what it all took as one who is quallified by having actually done so much of it himself (as well as demonstrating good capability in your other posts such as the scabbard making projects.) |
I thought some folks would appreciate seeing it from this perspective...
| Jared Smith wrote: | | I would claim that in today's prices your kit has an approximate economic value of $10,000 U.S. (assumming you value your labor at somewhere around $20 per hour as a versatile but skilled "apprentice level" craftsman..... no offense intended/ compliments very intended.) With practice you could undoubtedly produce things faster, but then I would say your labor would be worth more per hour....! This cost is relatively consistent with estimates (yes some of them by game producers) that I found when attempting to research costs for equipping a basic foot soldier in medieval times. If you plan to go on and acquire a horse, pay for training, and equip a retinue...your pocket book has my condolences! |
I had someone ask me about a month ago where I got everything. I told him what I had made and what I had acquired. He then asked how much I would take on the spot for the whole kit. His jaw dropped when I told him I'd take $5000 cash, and he could have it all right that instant. Offer is still on the table for anyone else... pick it up, or we split shipping.
Skilled apprentice is accurate in some of the crafts, underestimates some, and overestimates others (more like village idiot with the initial sewing escapades!). I'm certainly no master of any... Time spent with some of the projects was, indeed, a learning curve. I had to build a couple of forging tools, for example. Now that they are made, any time I would need them, I have them. This will be the way it is for a while... need a tool, make it, have it.
I'd love a horse at some point, but I doubt that will ever come to pass... What I will be doing instead is continuing to build multiple kits spanning Western European history from the 9th or 10h century through the 16th. My pocketbook is hanging in there - visible projects are slowing, but I have a bunch of behind the scenes stuff going on. Part of my plan (by necessity) is to start making and selling some of these projects... that's happening already on a small level, behind the scenes.
| Jared Smith wrote: | | I fully support the helm choice too. I hate the constriction, discomfort, and limitation of vision from helms. You have enough to share that being able to communicate with the public is an admirable priority. |
Again, thanks. I spent a good deal of time talking to kids, so it was a whole lot of fun. Being "the guy in the mask" where they can't see it's a real person inside makes things so much harder. Seeing a little girl's eyes light up when you call her a princess, or seeing a little boy's chest puff out when you talk to him about a chivalrous life, promising he can grow up to be a good man if he sticks by the right path in the years to come, pointing out how he's so strong and looks after his family as he does. I got more hugs from young kids in one day... had an email or two from parents about how the experience influenced the kids in a positive way. THAT is a big part of why I do this.
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve Grisetti wrote: | | Jared Smith wrote: | | ...I would claim that in today's prices your kit has an approximate economic value of $10,000 U.S. (assumming you value your labor at somewhere around $20 per hour as a versatile but skilled "apprentice level" craftsman..... no offense intended/ compliments very intended.).... |
Exactly the sort of thing that I had in mind. Patrick and Aaron may not have huge $$$ invested in their kit projects, but the economic value is something else, entirely. Of course, there is more to the equation than economic value. I suspect that Patrick and Aaron each feel a sense of accomplishment far in excess of monetary value. |
It's really pretty cool, Steve! I look at it, and nearly the entire thing was by my own effort. Am I proud of it? Yeah, I really am, honestly! I got a lot more out of the process than I feel I put into it. My understanding of the crafts, of the functionality, what it might have been like to be literally in that guy's shoes... you can take the history and accounts and see it through this guy's eyes. Now, I'll put this on a mannequin for static display in the house. Eventually, I'll add the other kits as well, and I'll have a timeline literally standing in front of me... my own little time machine, my own little museum... and I'll have the option of jumping into any of them.
Would I do it again? I already am... with multiple other kits in the works from different periods, and I'm certain I'll be tweaking this one, too. Would I recommend anyone else do it, too? In a heartbeat.
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Fitzmartin wrote: | | Greetings All, I ran into Aaron and his friend John at TRF this year. I probaly would not have seen them if it wasn't for their kits. I was thinking "Gee, check these guys out" as they were walking towards me when all of a sudden "Hey I know you!" I have done TRF for quite a few years now and they were hot. Somebody was wanting a picture every time we turned around. They brew some fine mead too. Sincerely, Patrick Fitzmartin |
Hey, Patrick! It was great to have run into you there - been too long, my friend! Speaking of pics... have you run across anyone who has any of us? All those pictures, and I don't have a single one. Shame, too... lots of cuties!
Somehow, I vaguely remember mead... We went through about 6 gallons, I think!
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Jeff Hsieh
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| Posted: Mon 12 Dec, 2005 7:31 am Post subject: |
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Cool outift Aaron, thanks for the pictures! I have a few questions:
1. How did you get the sleeves to taper so nicely? Is there a website with instructions and patterns?
2. How are your chausses held up?
3. What is appropriate hand protection for this era? Mail mittens? Leather gloves?
4. When your coif is unlaced, is it possible to push your head completely through so it sits on your shoulders, like a hoodie?
"Tuitio fidei et obsequium pauperum."
- The Knights Hospitaller, 1130 AD
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Mon 12 Dec, 2005 7:38 am Post subject: |
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Propper hand protection, acording to the illustrations, is mail mitts.
Sheepskin gloves are worn by nobles, and used for Sword/buckler fencing as well, but I can't remember seeing them on armoured men.
Many have bare hands.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Mon 12 Dec, 2005 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Jeff Hsieh wrote: | | Cool outift Aaron, thanks for the pictures! |
Thanks for the kind words!
| Jeff Hsieh wrote: | I have a few questions:
1. How did you get the sleeves to taper so nicely? Is there a website with instructions and patterns? |
I assume you mean the maille. I didn't follow instructions or patterns - been doing this so damned long, it's intuitive. That said, I don't want to just leave you with "no" and be done with it. There is a technique of adding or dropping a link in the traditional 4:1 pattern to either expand or reduce the subsequent rows. Bu dropping certain numbers of links at certain intervals along the bottom quarter of the sleeve, I was able to get this nice, fairly even taper. I'll look for any decent reference... I have some pics I took somewhere, I believe...
| Jeff Hsieh wrote: | | 2. How are your chausses held up? |
Luck, ties, and points. I had initially wanted to point them (tie them on) to my braies, but this turned out to be way too much weight... would have been dropping trou every couple of steps - not the Knightly portrayal I wanted to present. What I did instead was widen the top a little bit and use a belt for suspension. Now, they are somewhat like a pair of motorcycle/rodeo chaps, if that makes any sense. Once they are on, I pulled them up on my legs until the feet were positioned where they needed to be, and tied a leather tie around the outside of the chausses to hold them in place. That does 3 things... 1) it keeps enough free space for me to kneel without binding in the maille. 2) it keeps me from tripping over the darned stuff - would be like massive ankle weights with the excess bunched up around my feet. 3) it helps take a little of the weight off the hips and puts it on the calves.
| Jeff Hsieh wrote: | | 3. What is appropriate hand protection for this era? Mail mittens? Leather gloves? |
Elling answered this one above. Lots of illustrations show attached maille mufflers. I felt this was uncomfortable, unwieldy, and a bit like a baby's sleeper for my taste. This is one concession I chose to deal with... If I ever decide to actually do any fighting in this, I'll make mufflers that I can point to the wrists - lace them on with rawhide.
| Jeff Hsieh wrote: | | 4. When your coif is unlaced, is it possible to push your head completely through so it sits on your shoulders, like a hoodie? |
I have 2 different coifs - one laces up the back and fits like a ski mask - pretty contoured to the face. That one is either on or it's off. The one in the picture doesn't lace anywhere. Though I have closed it in a good bit from what is shown in the pictures, I can manage to pull it back in the manner you mention. For public non-combat, that is the way I usually have it settled... good visual, can be put in place, but is also comfortable.
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Mon 12 Dec, 2005 10:07 am Post subject: |
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When it comes to the chauce, I don't have mail under my padded "leggings". The tights are allready covered by the hauberk, anyway.
The mail is riveted to a strip of belt leather, which is then sown onto the padded leggings.
It works quite well, and saves weight.
the Kingsmirror (1250) states the following about the equipment of a knight:
"The rider himself should be equipped in this wise: he should wear good soft breeches [hose] made of soft and thoroughly blackened linen cloth, which should reach up to the belt; outside these, good mail hose which should come up high enough to be girded on with a double strap; over these he must have good trousers made of linen cloth of the sort that I have already described; finally, over these he should have good knee-pieces madeof thick iron and rivets hard as steel
Above and next to the body he should Wear a soft gambison, which need not come lower than to the middle of, the thigh. Over this he must have a strong breastplate made of good iron covering the body from the nipples to the trousers belt; outside this, a well-made hauberk and over the hauberk a firm gambison made in the manner which I have already described but without sleeves.
He must have a dirk § and two swords, one girded on and another hanging from the pommel of the saddle. On his head he must have a dependable helmet made of good steel and provided with a visor. He must also have a strong, thick shield fastened to a durable shoulder belt and, in addition, a good sharp spear with a firm shaft and pointed with fine steel.
Now it seems needless to speak further about the equipment of men who fight on horseback; there are, however, other weapons which a mounted warrior may use, if he wishes; among these are the "horn bow" and the weaker crossbow, which a man can easily draw even when on horseback, and certain other weapons, too, if he should want them."
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Jeff Hsieh
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| Posted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 9:43 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies Aaron!
"Tuitio fidei et obsequium pauperum."
- The Knights Hospitaller, 1130 AD
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| Jeff Hsieh wrote: | | Thanks for the replies Aaron! |
No problem, Jeff!
I did look for pics to illustrate the maille work... didn't find what I was looking for exactly, but will try to use a couple to help illustrate this if I can find a clear example in the pics I have. If I can, I'll post them for you.
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