Gauntlet with sword -- myArmoury.com

Eric Nower · Posted: Sun 04 Dec, 2005 11:01 am Post subject: Gauntlet with sword

Hello all,

I was wondering...Does anyone know of any surviving examples of a gauntlet with a sword( however short or long) forged onto it. Is it historical or purley fiction? Are there any examples in art or tapastries?

Lee O'Hagan · Posted: Sun 04 Dec, 2005 12:37 pm Post subject:

Hi Eric,
A Pata is a historical gauntlet sword,

Vince Labolito · Posted: Sun 04 Dec, 2005 12:42 pm Post subject:

I was just about to respond and let Eric know about these as well. I was just looking to see if I could find a picture of one in the albums.

You can see a Pata in action in the final battle in the movie "WILLOW". Probably used incorrectly, but it is on display.

Lee O'Hagan · Posted: Sun 04 Dec, 2005 12:45 pm Post subject:

hey vince,
must have just beat you to it,
couple more pics as most of mine are a bit large,
http://uk.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=+p...&x=wrt

Hisham Gaballa · Posted: Sun 04 Dec, 2005 2:04 pm Post subject:

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1201

Any ideas on how these weapons were used? They can't have been used for fencing as they would have been very restrictive with the wrist effectively paralysed, wouldn't they?

Eric Nower · Posted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 6:10 am Post subject:

Hello all,

Thanks Lee,

Any idea on what time peroid it's from,I'm guessing the 15th cen. but I could be wrong.

C. Stackhouse · Posted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 7:15 am Post subject:

From the little information I have been able to gather, it seems as if this weapon was used during the 1800's, originated in India and derived from the katar. If the time period is wrong, feel free to correct it. Razz

Wolfgang Armbruster · Posted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 8:02 am Post subject:

Once I read on a forum that these were cavalry swords. But don't quote me on that Wink

Looks like a real wrist-breaker. I wouldn't use such a sword. My guess is that those swords were quite rare (like the Talhoffer dueling shields Laughing Out Loud

)

Hisham Gaballa · Posted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 8:12 am Post subject:

Wolfgang Armbruster · Posted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 8:21 am Post subject:

Thx for the info!
So these swords were used for quite some time. Makes me think that this design was working. Maybe it was brought to India by the Moguls?
I really wonder how these swords were used. They don't look like born cutters, more like thrusting weapons (like a katar).

Hisham Gaballa · Posted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 9:20 am Post subject:

Ville Paananen · Posted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 10:48 am Post subject:

I think these weapons would provide quite a leverage, with a padded gauntlet supporting the wrist static. Using one would differ much from the usual swordsmanship, it would be interesting to try one. I haven't seen them in ebay etc too often.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 11:38 am Post subject:

These might make sense for cavalry use. Think of the way the cavalry sabre gave way to the sword in the west, with final designs emphasizing the straight arm and thrust only. The weapon shown here may be an attempt to force the user to attack with the thrust, using it as a short lance. Pure speculation, though.

Nate C. · Posted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 11:53 am Post subject:

Could these have been used like the Polish(?) cavalry tuck? i.e. more of a thrusting action? Although they do look quite capable of cutting too. Are they all rigid or are some articulated?

Cheers,
Nate Coser

C. Stackhouse · Posted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 7:56 pm Post subject:

These weapons actually look quite comfortable and easy to use.

Anton de Vries · Posted: Tue 06 Dec, 2005 3:46 am Post subject:

The stiff wrist would severely limit movement, compared to 'normal' swords.
I assume that the construction makes it difficult to release the sword. It could probably break your arm or worse if it got stuck, especially from horseback.

Polden's Law obviously applies here: "If exotic weapons were any good, they wouldn't be exotic, would they?"

Eric Nower · Posted: Tue 06 Dec, 2005 4:26 am Post subject:

So there wasn't anything in historical Europe like that.....mostly India.

"Polden's Law obviously applies here: "If exotic weapons were any good, they wouldn't be exotic, would they?""

Apparenetly this seems to be true Laughing Out Loud

Hisham Gaballa · Posted: Tue 06 Dec, 2005 7:22 am Post subject:

I've been doing a bit of reading, but don't really have much to show for my efforts.

This from P. S. Rawson's "The Indian Sword" (1968), I was originally going to quote it, but felt too lazy and let my scanner do the work instead: Big Grin

Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" has several excellent photos of very old patas, but no information on how they were used. These pictures are from Elgood:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys...lgood1.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys...good_2.jpg

C. Stackhouse · Posted: Tue 06 Dec, 2005 7:36 am Post subject:

I know this may seem odd. But I'm now addicted to this weapon. Razz

I have a soft spot for exotic weapons, I'm a huge fan of unique and interesting designs.

Wolfgang Armbruster · Posted: Tue 06 Dec, 2005 7:57 am Post subject:

Now that is interesting! Happy

Even if the blades were mostly European, I doubt they were Rapier-blades, they look more like cut-and-thrust blades.
How do you guard yourself with such a sword when the enemy closes in? Or was it supposed to be used in conjunction with a shield?
I like the short-pata with the strongly tapering blade and the double-fuller on the first pic. That one must
be very effective against chain-maille.

So now it's Polden's law vs. Rawson's assessment Laughing Out Loud