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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 11:01 am    Post subject: Some information on two original targes         Reply with quote

I was recently in Scotland, having joined Vince & Grace Evans on one of their amazing research trips, and got to handle, photograph, and take stats on a couple of targaid in Glasgow.
Although I am unable to share my photos without permission from the museum(s) I can give a few stats on them!

Slàinte, Mac

.40-45 dm
-An elaborately decorated targaid in the Kelvingrove collection (which we viewed at the Glasgow Museums Resource Center).
Overall diameter - 19-1/2"
Weight- 6 lbs. 3 oz.
Central Boss - 3" diameter. (pierced with circles, and cutout with arrow shaped openings, red fabric underneath.)
Edge thickness - ½"
Retains it’s leather forearm strap, fabric & leather wrapped handgrip(cord style), and spike sheath (spike missing).
Animal skin backing, well worn.
Frontside decorated with tooled leather, circular & triangular pierced brass plates (red fabric cutout & inserted underneath), and various size tacks/studs in circular array.(some missing). Some of the brass plates are also missing portions.


*Edit - I just recalled that Ron Luciano had taken a photo of this piece when it was on display at the Kelvingrove Museum, back in the summer of 2003. So although I can't post my detailed photos from the Reserve, I can show this publicly taken shot.
It certainly is a beautiful piece, 'eh ! (* Aaron, this is the targe I was describing to you in my Scotland trip thread!)




Boss detail .... (cropped from a larger image of the photo above)



INV. 35 2/111
- Targaid in the Burrell Collection, Glasgow.
Overall diameter- 18"
Weight- 3 lbs. 13oz.
Central Boss- 3" diameter (engraved, missing center plug/spike?, edges scalloped and tacked on)
6 smaller 1-3/4" dia. bosses, spaced in circular design, each having a central pierced hole.
Edge thickness- 3/8", ½" with frontside leather (backing missing).
Frontside- browned tooled leather with various size tacks/studs in circular array.
Six triangular brass plates(one missing, and 2 missing portions).
Some of the tacks/heads are also missing, and a few small areas of the leather are split/damaged, as well.
Backside- no materials, wood ply exposed (4 sections, multiple pegging).
Central staple for boss turned over and embedded.
It has two raised rectangular iron studs for securing forearm stap, and a hinged iron handgrip that swivels back & forth.
(hand area is beveled over).
There is edge damage near the handgrip, and some cracking on the backing ply.
Worm hole damage is also present.


Last edited by Thomas McDonald on Tue 06 Dec, 2005 3:10 am; edited 14 times in total
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: Some information on two original targes         Reply with quote

Thomas McDonald wrote:
(* Aaron, this is the targe I was describing to you in my Scotland trip thread!)

Mac, my friend, somehow you just knew I'd be interested, didn't you?

I appreciate the info and the images. I swear, every time I see these, my interest in trying to make one increases just a touch.

I'm treating myself to some nice new toys for the shop this year for Christmas, so I should be equipped soon to make a solid attempt.

-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________

Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec, 2005 5:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Aaron

Yup, I knew an aspiring targe builder would appreciate the info :-)

I was just looking at some of the awesome targaid detail I snapped during my trip .....
There was some real beauties at the Culloden center, which I captured, one of which had an extensively tooled covering, no tacks, plates, or bosses, and showed muliple sword cut slash marks all across the front !

These pieces are just too cool, Mac
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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Dec, 2005 5:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The statistical information is really interesting to me because it shows how quickly weight can add up.

Thickness often comes up in discussion and it's good to see the information of a lighter and heavier example of the same genre.

Cheers

GC
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Aaron Schnatterly




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Dec, 2005 5:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas McDonald wrote:
Yup, I knew an aspiring targe builder would appreciate the info :-) These pieces are just too cool, Mac

They are just downright cool... of course, I'll have to acquire a good dirk to go along with it!

I'm hoping to be working on a piece possibly starting first quarter or second quarter '06. If someone would just hand me the winning Powerball ticket, I could really get very serious on these projects. Now, I have the nuissance of having to support myself, which really puts major potholes in my road to progress...

Thomas McDonald wrote:
I was just looking at some of the awesome targaid detail I snapped during my trip .....
There was some real beauties at the Culloden center, which I captured, one of which had an extensively tooled covering, no tacks, plates, or bosses, and showed muliple sword cut slash marks all across the front !

I won't be making a replica of any particular piece, but will take inspiration from ones I have seen. I'll probably wind up making more than one... When the time comes, Mac, I'm sure I'll pick your brain for the finer details if you don't mind. My thoughts are probably somewhere in between this one with the cutouts and the other you mention here with less flash... Biggest holdup with the fanciest of the fancy would be the extreme piercing work and my limited experience with brass... but hey, it's only time and money, right? Worried

Again, though, Mac - thanks for posting these.

-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________

Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Dec, 2005 7:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Glen

Yes, it is amazing how the little bits tilt the scale ....

Aaron, yer welcome, laddie ..... my pleasure !

Here's a little more targe information care of researcher Larry Davis, who arrived in Alba shortly after we'd left !
(we'd hoped to have been able to hook up over there but our schedules did not workout )
Larry has been doing extensive targe research, thru the years, and plans on writing a paper on them !
These conversations were relayed via Arik Estus, on SFI's Scottish forum, with Larry's permission !

I'm looking forward to speaking with Larry soon and comparing notes ! :-) Mac

"I just got back from Scotland this last week.
Super time, I had six days of hands on withover twenty six of the museums targes!
Man, what alot of surprises!
This time I used a high powered magnification system and am incorporating some forensics (Friends at the RCMP) as well.
In the thread about targes last September you asked about metal bands or rims on targes.
I saw seven in the collection at the RMS that had brass rims or sheathing around the outside edges of the targes, some had sword cuts (indentations) a the top (12 O'clock) possitions as well as cuts at the bottom or 6 O'clock possitions.
I would post some photos but as yet I do not have permission from the museum (copyright) so what can you do.
As I have a standing offer of research time at the RSM I do not wish to jepordise it by letting out photos.
Some of the brass was engraved with simple geometric paterns, triangles, zigzags and the like. There was one from the Seafield-Grant collection that had rather fancy celtic type scrolls cut into the brass edging. They were held on with brass nails.

The pedominant wood used was pinus sylvestras or scots pine. With oak being the other used, one looked like fir but I cannot be certain at this time. The pine being the most easily accessible wood.

I was told by the curator of medieval (includes 18th century) furniture that most lumber at this period was being imported from from the Balkans or Germany as most of the old forests were gone from northern England and Scotland.

It was really great to be amongst my peers at the museum, it felt as though my mind was wakeing from a long sleep. Real talks with real historians, about documented historical fact.
And backed up by the real artefacts."
....................................................................................................................................
"Most of the targes I examined were around 6 pounds to 6 & 1/2 pounds in weight, and the plies were pretty consistantly 1/4" in thickness give or take a 1/16th. Giving roughly a 1/2" thickness in total. 3/4" total with leather.

On alot of the targes the rear edge (rim) was tapered back to about 3/4" to 1" thus keeping the face leather just below or flush to the backing leather after it was tacked in place.
I suppose this way it doesn't rub on the elbow or chafe the knuckles.
I have make several where the leather is tacked on the same plane as the backing leather and found it really uncomfortable."
- Cheers, Larry Davis
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Todd Salazar





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PostPosted: Tue 06 Dec, 2005 10:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is terrific information Mac! Thanks for the post!

-Todd Big Grin
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Dec, 2005 11:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Continuing our Targe Talk .....

Here's a few shots I took of the silver ornamentation on the targe of Bonnie Prince Charlie, at The Museum of Scotland Edinburgh.

Mac



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