| Author |
Message |
Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
|
 Posted: Tue 22 Nov, 2005 5:15 am Post subject: The 16th century sword of William Wallace ? |
 |
|
Tartans.com Article
Little is known about the origins of the sword that sits on display. The weapon carries no maker's mark, and has no inscriptions. The quality of the metal is poor, as the sword was made in Scotland and not in Germany or Flanders. Its great length has been repaired twice, and the weapon was rehilted many times. But this sword has a history, and its stature is said to be equal to the man who carried it: none other than William Wallace, Scotland's national hero, Guardian and Knight.
That William Wallace himself is a man of legend there is no doubt. Even when he was alive the rumors said that he was nine feet tall, breathed fire and could kill with a look. Obviously, the stories are a wee bit of Scottish exaggeration, but the size of the sword on display at the Wallace National Monument in Stirling gives an indication of Wallace's true physical size.
The two-handed sword is approximately five foot six inches in length overall, while the blade itself is around 52 inches long. It may have been longer or shorter originally, as two repairs over the centuries could have changed the sword's length. But these repairs would not have shortened or lengthened the blade dramatically. Therefore, from the size of the weapon we can determine that William Wallace was, in all probability, well over six feet tall. A shorter man could have wielded it, but the sword would have been very difficult for him to control effectively in battle.
The weapon itself weighs in at around six pounds (2.72 kg) and is a reminder that, today, we barely know about the art of swordmaking. Most would guess the weight of a weapon this size at closer to ten pounds, and since this is not a quality weapon it could weigh considerably less if it had been crafted by a master swordmaker. The blade has no fuller, which was not typical of weapons of the time, and slowly tapers down its entire length almost to the point. The handle of the sword has a pommel of iron, and the grip is padded in brown leather.
By now, some of you are wondering; how can this be the sword of William Wallace? The man died some 700 years ago! There is no proof that this is Wallace's actual sword, although it certainly has a history that lays a significant claim to the honour.
The legend of the sword begins with William Wallace's capture and execution in 1305, when the sword was taken to Dunbarton Castle. There it remained until 1505, when none other than King James IV ordered the weapon rehilted. It was given bindings of silk, a new hilt, a new scabbard and belt. The sword then returned to Dunbarton Castle and remained there until 1825, when it was sent to the Royal Armories in the Tower of London for repair. At his time the sword was examined by an expert, Sir Samuel Meyrick, who did not think the hilt matched the age of the weapon. He apparently did not know of the rehilting ordered by King James IV in 1505. The new hilt was removed and an older (15th Century) hilt was added in its place.
In 1888, the sword was transferred from Dunbarton Castle to the new Wallace Monument. Some time after this, it was again refitted with a hilt that was a copy of the one placed in 1505. During its stay at the Wallace Monument, the sword was stolen twice: once by suffragettes and another time by a man who hid it in a chimney.
Sir Walter Scott supposedly once described this sword as "Fit for archangel to wield, Yet light in his terrible hand". Even if this is not William Wallace's sword, it is still of immense historical value. The fact that the King recognized it as Wallace's sword in 1505 greatly increases the probability that it is the weapon used seven hundred years ago by Scotland's national hero, William Wallace. -- By BW February 2000
Stats (according to Björn's SFMO article)
OL - 167.6 cm (66")
BL - 132 cm (52")
BW - 57 mm (2.25")
Weight - 2.72 kg (6 lbs.)
All Photos - T. McDonald, 2005.
 Attachment: 54.95 KB
Attachment: 52.67 KB
Attachment: 51.52 KB
Attachment: 33.07 KB
Attachment: 49.26 KB
Attachment: 46.57 KB
Attachment: 49.19 KB
Attachment: 57.87 KB
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
Last edited by Thomas McDonald on Tue 22 Nov, 2005 8:31 am; edited 3 times in total
|
|
   |
 |
Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
|
| Posted: Tue 22 Nov, 2005 6:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
A few more, including Mr. Vince Evans next to it, taken at the Wallace Monument, Stirling.
Photos - T. McDonald, 2005.
Attachment: 35.67 KB
Attachment: 31.11 KB
Attachment: 51.3 KB
Attachment: 58.5 KB
Attachment: 58.81 KB
Attachment: 58.25 KB
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joel Whitmore
Location: Simmesport, LA Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 342
|
| Posted: Tue 22 Nov, 2005 6:50 am Post subject: Wow Mac |
|
|
These are the best photos of the sword I have ever seen. As a matter of fact, having seen the sword in person, these photos let you see the sword better than the low lighting in the room. Did Peter get to take the sword out and document it? That would have been awesome! I have the MacCallan Armouries and it is a real clunker compared to the real thing. When you see the sword up close, you can notice the distal taper. It is a HUGE sword and I cannot say it is a 13th-14th century but it sure looks as if it were made to be used. Makes me wonder if Albion or Peter plans to replicate this one? Shhh I won't tell  Thanks for the photos Mac.
Joel
|
|
  |
|
Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
|
| Posted: Tue 22 Nov, 2005 7:35 am Post subject: Re: Wow Mac |
|
|
| Joel Whitmore wrote: | | These are the best photos of the sword I have ever seen. As a matter of fact, having seen the sword in person, these photos let you see the sword better than the low lighting in the room. Did Peter get to take the sword out and document it? That would have been awesome! I have the MacCallan Armouries and it is a real clunker compared to the real thing. When you see the sword up close, you can notice the distal taper. It is a HUGE sword and I cannot say it is a 13th-14th century but it sure looks as if it were made to be used. Makes me wonder if Albion or Peter plans to replicate this one? Shhh I won't tell Thanks for the photos Mac. - Joel |
Hi Joel
Thanks, I try ;-)
Seriously, you are most correct about the low lighting in that tower's room and the difficulty in seeing the swords detail !
As I discussed with Vince, I purposely set out to shoot some clearer images of this one as, like you stated, I've never seen any good shots of this sword, nor its details ! So mission accomplished, I hope !
Not sure if your confusing Peter with Vince (as I was with Vince & Grace Evans on this trip) but no, we did not get to handle this piece, or document it, as we'd made no prior arrangements to do so !
In hindsight I should have taken a few snaps of the reproduction Wallace sword that was there but, as it was laying down behind glass, I opted to skip it ? Ah well, I'll live :-)
Cheers, Mac
Photos - T. McDonald, 2005.
Attachment: 54.25 KB
Attachment: 51.58 KB
Attachment: 108.41 KB
Attachment: 34.95 KB
Attachment: 43.25 KB
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
Last edited by Thomas McDonald on Tue 22 Nov, 2005 6:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
|
|
|
|
|
Elling Polden
|
| Posted: Tue 22 Nov, 2005 9:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
If it is as old as 1300, the lack of a fuller is quite stange.
A contemporary Type XII a or XIII a would both have pronounced fullers, and where seldom longer than 100 cm..
Also, a sword of this size would be a primary weapon. In a spear/pole arm dominated battlefield, it would be quite unpractical.
But then again, not as much as smilar sized claymores on the 17th cent. Pistol and Musket dominated battlefield, and that didn't prevent them from being made...
If the blade is original, my guess is that it was a "presentation sword", which might have been owned by Wallace, but hardly used in battle.
Heights above 180cm/ 6 feet would not be that uncommon in northern Europe. The average height was about 1,75cm /5'10".
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
|
|
 |
|
Greg Griggs
|
| Posted: Tue 22 Nov, 2005 9:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
Wonderful set of photos Mac! I've been enamored with that behemoth for some time and am glad to finally see some good pics. Would love to have someone do a real usable reproduction. Hope to see it in person next year. *keeping fingers crossed*
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious.
|
|
|
|
|
Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
|
| Posted: Tue 22 Nov, 2005 9:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Lancelot Chan wrote: | It looks REAL thin to me for its size!!! How many mm at the base by your estimation, Thomas?  |
Hi Lance
At a guess (as I'm trying to recall what it looked to be) .... maybe 5mm up where it seats into the guard ?
(hope I converted my fractions right, as I'm figuring 3/16")
Mac
Attachment: 64.36 KB
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joel Whitmore
Location: Simmesport, LA Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 342
|
| Posted: Tue 22 Nov, 2005 1:36 pm Post subject: Reporduction |
|
|
Mac I have a pic of that reproduction, albeit not a great one. From what I have seen, the blade is not unusually thin for a sword if its size. Although I didn;t take measurements, the sextion near the hilt is quite beefy and it has an oval crossection. Lemme see if I can post that pic. This morning, I could not post any.
Joel
P.S. it will not let me attach any photos.
|
|
|
|
|
Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
|
| Posted: Tue 22 Nov, 2005 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Reporduction |
|
|
| Joel Whitmore wrote: | | P.S. it will not let me attach any photos. |
Joel
There can be a variety of reasons why you can't get your images to attach !
Checkout these instructions at this link : http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/faq.php?mode=attach
Good luck, Mac
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
|
|
|
|
|
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
|
|
|
|
|
Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
|
| Posted: Tue 22 Nov, 2005 4:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Mac, this is a great series of photos. thank you. I'll post more later, but I have to stop reading/posting and get to work. You guys have to stop posting interesting things. |
Thanks, my man !
Eventually I'll get all these museum photos from my trip uploaded to the album section(s) here !
Mac
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
|
|
|
|
|
|
Alan F
Location: Scotland Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 13
|
| Posted: Tue 22 Nov, 2005 7:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Elling Polden wrote: | If it is as old as 1300, the lack of a fuller is quite stange.
A contemporary Type XII a or XIII a would both have pronounced fullers, and where seldom longer than 100 cm..
Also, a sword of this size would be a primary weapon. In a spear/pole arm dominated battlefield, it would be quite unpractical.
But then again, not as much as smilar sized claymores on the 17th cent. Pistol and Musket dominated battlefield, and that didn't prevent them from being made...
If the blade is original, my guess is that it was a "presentation sword", which might have been owned by Wallace, but hardly used in battle.
Heights above 180cm/ 6 feet would not be that uncommon in northern Europe. The average height was about 1,75cm /5'10". |
But then again, in the massed ranks of a Schitron (which Wallace had introduced to the Scottish Army) even a normal sized sword became both cumbersome and would get in the way - by Bannockburn many of those who carried a second weapon in a Schiltron carried an axe as it wouldn't get in the way.
I re-enact therefore I am
|
|
 |
|
Elling Polden
|
| Posted: Wed 23 Nov, 2005 12:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have this amusing theory that the first schitron would be inspired by about 300 norwegians, with kites and spears, surrounded by some 3000 Scottish levvies, plus few hundred knights at Largs, 1263
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
|
|
|
|
|
|
Alan F
Location: Scotland Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 13
|
| Posted: Wed 23 Nov, 2005 1:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Elling Polden wrote: | | I have this amusing theory that the first schitron would be inspired by about 300 norwegians, with kites and spears, surrounded by some 3000 Scottish levvies, plus few hundred knights at Largs, 1263 |
As I undrstand it, what it absed itself on was the Greek Phalanx.
I re-enact therefore I am
|
|
|
|
|
Elling Polden
|
| Posted: Wed 23 Nov, 2005 1:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
More likely, but less amusing to yours truly. 
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
|
|
|
|
|
|
Malcolm A
Location: Scotland, UK Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 89
|
| Posted: Wed 23 Nov, 2005 4:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
A few thoughts and comments from myself, a Scot who lives about 37 miles away from the Wallace Monument.
#1 The photos are really awesome and do great justice to the sword on show. Big applause etc!!!!
#2 Is it the actual sword used by Wallace? Personally I doubt it; I suspect that the king who said it was, was using it as a bit of PR / spin. Without real evidence to the contrary I would say it was not the real thing. [Though it would be GREAT if it was!]
I suspect that the same is true of the Stone of Destiny; would Edward 1 actually been able to get the real thing? Wouldn't some canny wee Scot have legged it into the Highlands with the real thing?
It's all good stuff for conspiracy theorists I'm sure.
#3 Was Wallace a big man? Almost certainly given how much has been said etc. True, we Scots do use poetic licence at times [but only during the hours we are awake]. Good example is:
- Rob Roy McGregor was once described as having arms so big and long he didn't have to bend to tie his shoes!
Wallace was also not shy of being a bit of a brute / vengeful man. It is recorded, apparently, that the skin of the English commander at Battle of Stirling was removed and part of it made into a belt for Wallace. Nice.....
On another occasion, when promised soldiers did not turn up to assist Wallace, he took the time to go from central Scotland all the way up to Aberdeen area to, how shall I put it, have words with the man who promised them.
He was certainly a hero but certainly not a "perfect "one.
#4 The schiltron; a great idea for fighting against mounted men but less so against archers. When Wallace used the tactic at the Battle of Falkirk he actually grouped the men into schiltrons with ropes around the outside of the group to help keep the formation shape. This effectively immobilised them and laid them out neatly for the English army's archers to use as target practice. Robert the Bruce [aka The Bruce] developed the idea in that he got the schiltrons trained up to move en masse which proved very effective at the Battle of Bannockburn.
That's my tuppence worth; some of it is not backed up with actual history / evidence so please do not think I am correcting / damning anyone else's statements.
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself
|
|
|
|
|
|
Alan F
Location: Scotland Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 13
|
| Posted: Wed 23 Nov, 2005 6:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | #4 The schiltron; a great idea for fighting against mounted men but less so against archers. When Wallace used the tactic at the Battle of Falkirk he actually grouped the men into schiltrons with ropes around the outside of the group to help keep the formation shape. This effectively immobilised them and laid them out neatly for the English army's archers to use as target practice. Robert the Bruce [aka The Bruce] developed the idea in that he got the schiltrons trained up to move en masse which proved very effective at the Battle of Bannockburn.
|
Malcolm, in Gaddgedlar I'm the chappie who teaches spear drill, so a few of my thoughts:
At Falkirk, the Scottish army went up against longbowmen when they were deployed en masse for the first time: this was a taster of what the French would experience at Crecy and Agincourt. Yes it was disastrous for the Scots, however it should be remembered that this was the first time that anyone had experienced such a thing in Northern Europe.
The introduction of the schiltron had been vital to Scotland. When the Scots fought the English in 1291, they were massacred. Scottish armies turned up with a motely array of weaponry - axes, swords, bills, spears indeed whatever was available. By introducing the schiltron, Wallace was effectively enforcing a rule that of how the Scottish army would be armed: Whilst other weapons wer being used, the main arm of the army was the spear. In that way, Wallace was a military innovator and part of revolution in how the Scots were armed and fought that would go on for the next 40 years.
I re-enact therefore I am
|
|
|
|
|
|
Kel Rekuta
|
| Posted: Wed 23 Nov, 2005 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Wow Mac |
|
|
| Thomas McDonald wrote: |
Hi Joel
Thanks, I try ;-)
Seriously, you are most correct about the low lighting in that tower's room and the difficulty in seeing the swords detail !
As I discussed with Vince, I purposely set out to shoot some clearer images of this one as, like you stated, I've never seen any good shots of this sword, nor its details ! So mission accomplished, I hope !
Photos - T. McDonald, 2005. |
Very well done! The detail in the photos is magnificent. And the rest of your trip looked fantastic!
I wouldn't want to burst anyone's balloon, so please understand this a personal opinion. I've long had reservations about the sword. Your photo #20 distinctly shows a weld line I noticed in the sword when I saw it. This blade looks more like a couple plowshares beaten into swords then welded into a giant sword. Thirteenth century Scotland had precious little steel industry and most blades were imported from the Continent. This is nothing like swords of the period, as others have noted. I suspect it was welded up from two broken sword blades by a village blacksmith.
IIRC, the sword was brought to James V's court by two Dumbarton merchants who claimed to have located it at the castle. James bought it (hook, line and sinker) from them. He then sent it to be rehilted in a manner appropriate for such a heroic blade. In its own right, the link to James V is sufficient to make it a national treasure. But I really think its provenance as the sword of William Wallace would make a Victorian arms dealer blush.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Malcolm A
Location: Scotland, UK Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 89
|
| Posted: Wed 23 Nov, 2005 8:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | At Falkirk, the Scottish army went up against longbowmen when they were deployed en masse for the first time: this was a taster of what the French would experience at Crecy and Agincourt. Yes it was disastrous for the Scots, however it should be remembered that this was the first time that anyone had experienced such a thing in Northern Europe. |
I stand corrected! I was not aware that that was the case; just shows the use of this site in educating people and correcting misconceptions. With hindsight, it would seem obvious that Wallace must have had a reason for the ropes being used to keep the formation shape and that the introduction of en masse archers must have been a heck of a shock.
The schiltron certainly did prove its worth on other occasions, turning the rag tag Scots army in to a real army worthy of that name.
The C4 program Weapons That Made Britain, http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/W/weapons/ , showed quite graphically what could be achieved in one day regarding training ordinary people how to use spears in a schiltron formation.
Many thanks Alan F for the insight!!!!
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum
|
This is a standard topic