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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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 Posted: Mon 21 Nov, 2005 8:32 am Post subject: |
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Patrick,
I'm just repeated what everyone's been saying, but that is one SWEET looking kit. The modifications are visually subtle, but they look like they make a big difference in how it hangs and moves.
Jean,
I have a Forth Armory coif that feels completely comfortable to the skin. I don't have one of their full shirts, but if it's the same, I don't imagine it'd be uncomfortable at all.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 21 Nov, 2005 8:33 am Post subject: |
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Patrick;
Well I will try weird stuff at least once, tried the plate leg armour on bare skin once also to see if it was cooler ! NO it wasn't, just clammy and promoted rapid rusting .  
But like I mentioned the butted maille feels glass smooth in comparison to the riveted maille.
Not sure what comments you could have made, just thought the info might be mildly interesting. ( Except maybe for the TOO MUCH INFORMATION part about chest hair.   )
Bill;
I also have a coif in the same butted stainless steel and it is comfortable without any padding just for casual wear, if any blows would be involved I would wear my linen coif underneath, and for any real fighting a cervellière would be the minimum head protection. Probably would use a kettle hat as my favourite type. (Theoretical back in period / time travel as I'm not currently doing any real training.  )
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 21 Nov, 2005 8:53 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Bill!
Many of the modifications aren't noticeable since they deal with overall fit. They are quite noticeable to me since I've been studying, and wanting, this kind of set-up for most of my life. I will say that the hauberk is much much easier to put on and take off now. There was quite a bit of squirming involved originally, but now it really just falls into place. Greg still had a laugh at my expense though.
Jean,
The majority of the rings and rivets I used for my alterations came from Forth Armory, where Bill got his coif. My GDFB coif is made with the same type of construction using wedge rivets. This has a pretty smooth feeling to it. I think the problem you'll run into with a lot of the lower end Indian stuff is that the setting of the rivets can leave a bit of a jagged burr around the rivet, especially if it's misaligned. While the Forth Armory and GDFB mail is also made in India there seems to be a bit more attention to quality control. The basic shirt that I performed these alterations on was also made in India. I spent some time going through the shirt and replaced a few rings that were missing their rivets, had rivets that weren't properly set, or rivets that were misaligned enough that they didn't look like they'd hold. I didn't find as many of those as I thought I would given the original shirt's cost.
My old butted springsteel hauberk was quite prickly in comparison and not nearly as smooth. As with everything: mileage varies.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 25 Nov, 2005 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Here' s a progression from the begining until now.
(The zinc-plated original)
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Fri 25 Nov, 2005 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Patrick;
No shots of the vinegar, I just rusted my hauberk cleaning it incident, now corrected !
O.K., not nice.
But the Picts are real nice.
I really have to get a digital camera soon so that you can make fun of me and whatever isn't authentic when I put on my various combinations of maille and plate covering 11th to 15th centuries 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sat 26 Nov, 2005 5:57 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Jean Thibodeau"]
No shots of the vinegar, I just rusted my hauberk cleaning it incident, now corrected 
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| Posted: Sat 26 Nov, 2005 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | I really have to get a digital camera soon so that you can make fun of me and whatever isn't authentic when I put on my various combinations of maille and plate covering 11th to 15th centuries |
It does come in handy. The camera that is, not the opportunity to make fun of you. |
Patrick, speak for yourself. The rest of us will enjoy the opportunity to make fun of Jean
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sat 26 Nov, 2005 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| Steve Grisetti wrote: | | Patrick, speak for yourself. The rest of us will enjoy the opportunity to make fun of Jean |
Well I was trying to be nice, but.................
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Sat 26 Nov, 2005 8:27 am Post subject: |
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Why do I get the idea that I am not the only crazy person? LOL
Actually Patrick, that haulberk looks great but my back hurts just looking at it, I don't know yet if I am going to be able to wear something like that due to the damage that I did to my spine from trying to be 25 for too many years.
Nonetheless, very nice, very nice indeed! I Like It! A Lot!
Your son looks like a fine young warrior by the way.
A handsome Count or Duke someday.
Happy Collecting,
Bob
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sat 26 Nov, 2005 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Bob Burns wrote: | Why do I get the idea that I am not the only crazy person? LOL
Actually Patrick, that haulberk looks great but my back hurts just looking at it, I don't know yet if I am going to be able to wear something like that due to the damage that I did to my spine from trying to be 25 for too many years.
Nonetheless, very nice, very nice indeed! I Like It! A Lot!
Your son looks like a fine young warrior by the way.
A handsome Count or Duke someday.
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Thanks Bob.
Crazy? I prefer 'eccentric'. My friends are no longer surprised but lord knows what my neighbors think!
Fortunately one of my children has inherited my interests. The older two have none, about medieval a&a or any other facet of history.
I have back problems too, which is why I have to visit the chiropractor several times a month. The waist belt goes a long way towards helping relieve the tension on the back and shoulders. I can wear this for 3-4 hours at a time with minimal discomfort, undoubtedly more if I was in better shape.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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G. Scott H.
Location: Arizona, USA Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Sat 26 Nov, 2005 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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Good stuff, Patrick. I don't think I'd have the patience to do that much work myself, but I'm glad you do. Definitely a dramatic improvement.  BTW: your "squire" looks truly thrilled in that first pic. Is he into this stuff too, or is he just humoring the old man? I would have loved it had my dad been into swords and armour when I was a kid.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sat 26 Nov, 2005 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| G. Scott H. wrote: | | Good stuff, Patrick. I don't think I'd have the patience to do that much work myself, but I'm glad you do. Definitely a dramatic improvement. BTW: your "squire" looks truly thrilled in that first pic. Is he into this stuff too, or is he just humoring the old man? I would have loved it had my dad been into swords and armour when I was a kid. |
Thanks G. I'm actually not an armour 'nut' persay, but this is one of the periods I've always been fascinated with. When I was a kid I had an old copy of La Morte de Arthur by Mallory and it was heavily illustrated in old engravings and woodcuts. All of the knights in those illustrations wore hauberks and conical helms. I spent hours looking at those illustrations so I'm sure that's where my fascination with this type of armor comes from. Several times over the summer as I was working on this projet I told myself, "That's good enough" but then I'd decide it really wasn't. In the end I decided to go all the way as I knew I'd regret it if I didn't. In spite of a couple of hair pulling moments I've been pretty satisfied.
Yes, he's actually into it but he gets nervous when you take his photo. I don't believe in forcing my hobbies onto my children.
If you think he looks thrilled there what about this?
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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G. Scott H.
Location: Arizona, USA Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Sat 26 Nov, 2005 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | Thanks G. I'm actually not an armour 'nut' persay, but this is one of the periods I've always been fascinated with. When I was a kid I had an old copy of La Morte de Arthur by Mallory and it was heavily illustrated in old engravings and woodcuts. All of the knights in those illustrations wore hauberks and conical helms. I spent hours looking at those illustrations so I'm sure that's where my fascination with this type of armor comes from. Several times over the summer as I was working on this projet I told myself, "That's good enough" but then I'd decide it really wasn't. In the end I decided to go all the way as I knew I'd regret it if I didn't. In spite of a couple of hair pulling moments I've been pretty satisfied.
Yes, he's actually into it but he gets nervous when you take his photo. I don't believe in forcing my hobbies onto my children.
If you think he looks thrilled there what about this?
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Just tell him, "Son, just be glad I'm not a WWII reenactor. If I were, you'd have to carry around a BAR and 300 rounds of ammo." That ought to cheer him up a bit.
I'm actually into somewhat later mail, with the built in mittens and leather-lined "flap" (don't know the tech term) that can be used to cover the lower face. I haven't found a good source for such an animal, so I may have to do some modification myself. I'm not particularly looking forward to it, though...
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sat 26 Nov, 2005 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Just tell him, "Son, just be glad I'm not a WWII reenactor. If I were, you'd have to carry around a BAR and 300 rounds of ammo." That ought to cheer him up a bit. |
Would it make you concerned if I told you that he actually knows what a BAR is?
| Quote: | | I'm actually into somewhat later mail, with the built in mittens and leather-lined "flap" (don't know the tech term) that can be used to cover the lower face. I haven't found a good source for such an animal, so I may have to do some modification myself. I'm not particularly looking forward to it, though... |
If you're looking for something with an integeral ventail to cover the face I think you'll have to pay big bucks for one from the likes of Erik Schmid or make it yourself. I haven't seen anything like it on the production market, so suck it up and do it yourself!
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 26 Nov, 2005 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, used to own a BAR: Recoil felt more like a .22 than a 30.06 and very very accurate for something firing from an open bolt.
Sort of sad I traded it for a Bren in the late 1980's : Sort of a " FrankenBREN" looks like the ones made for china in 7.92 mm mauser but with a 7.62 Nato barrel and still feeds from the original 7.92 mag.
Laws changed since the good old days.  Got to shoot an Mg34 that belonged to a friend: Don't get too excited all these nice Autos had been modified to semi-auto only.
Some of these are still around because of a grandfather clause in the law were people who had one could keep them.
Anyway, the whole subject of Canadian gun laws is too complicated and depressing to get into detail about.
Mostly, the paperwork just got multiplied by a factor of ten with no impact on real crime.  
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Sun 27 Nov, 2005 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| G. Scott H. wrote: | | ...I'm actually into somewhat later mail, with the built in mittens and leather-lined "flap" (don't know the tech term) that can be used to cover the lower face. I haven't found a good source for such an animal, so I may have to do some modification myself. I'm not particularly looking forward to it, though... |
Just to make it more complicated, there may actually be two types of ventail, an 11th century "square flap" and a 12th-13th century triangular flap. This picture from Osprey's "Norman Knight" might illustrate. AFAIK the square ventail is still hypothetical though.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 27 Nov, 2005 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| Hisham Gaballa wrote: | | G. Scott H. wrote: | | ...I'm actually into somewhat later mail, with the built in mittens and leather-lined "flap" (don't know the tech term) that can be used to cover the lower face. I haven't found a good source for such an animal, so I may have to do some modification myself. I'm not particularly looking forward to it, though... |
Just to make it more complicated, there may actually be two types of ventail, an 11th century "square flap" and a 12th-13th century triangular flap. This picture from Osprey's "Norman Knight" might illustrate. AFAIK the square ventail is still hypothetical though. |
Both of those types of ventails have been pretty well substantiated through period artwork. The square or 'bib' type ventail is the earlier of the two and is considered by many to be the classic norman design. Period statuary shows just such a ventail tied up under the chin. The integral side-flap arrangement is a later development.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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G. Scott H.
Location: Arizona, USA Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Sun 27 Nov, 2005 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | I haven't seen anything like it on the production market, so suck it up and do it yourself! |
Looks like that's what I'll have to do. Does anyone have any idea as to how to attach the leather to the mail? I'm thinking it might be feasible to just stitch it to the links with some of that super heavy duty leather thread (like the stuff that comes with a leather awl). 
Hisham, thanks for the pic. I was thinking of something more like the triangular ventail in the bottom photo.
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Mostly, the paperwork just got multiplied by a factor of ten with no impact on real crime. |
Welcome to the wonderful world of gun control.  99% of gun laws do one thing extremely well: they keep guns out of the hands of honest people... (Sorry to get off topic, but this is something of a passion of mine, as guns are my other hobby.)
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 27 Nov, 2005 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| G. Scott H. wrote: | | Does anyone have any idea as to how to attach the leather to the mail? I'm thinking it might be feasible to just stitch it to the links with some of that super heavy duty leather thread (like the stuff that comes with a leather awl). |
I'd probably use artificial sinew or heavy thread to attach the leather. Some mail garments are trimmed with rings of bronze (or some yellow non-ferrous metal of unknown composition). This may very well be for simple decoration, or it may be for the attachment of a leather liner or edging as bronze (or some yellow non-ferrous metal of unknown composition) doesn't corrode when it comes into prolonged contact with leather.
| Quote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Mostly, the paperwork just got multiplied by a factor of ten with no impact on real crime. |
Welcome to the wonderful world of gun control. 99% of gun laws do one thing extremely well: they keep guns out of the hands of honest people... (Sorry to get off topic, but this is something of a passion of mine, as guns are my other hobby.) |
Mine too, but what does that have to do with mail?
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sun 27 Nov, 2005 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Patrick;
Sorry, someone mentioned a BAR as a Joke and I got carried away: Tried to keep it short at least. 
Yes, please, back to maille.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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