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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
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PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 3:02 pm    Post subject: New photos of my hauberk. (new photo: 12-09-2005)         Reply with quote

As requested here are a few photos of my newly altered hauberk. With Greg on the shutter we braved a blustery southwest Kansas afternoon and managed to get these done before the rain hit. Thanks be to the Gregger!

Reference this earlier photo from the medieval faire in August.

Now observe the improved version. Notice the improved hang of the hauberk's skirt, as well as the added length. The newer rings haven't oxidized yet and you can see the additions due to the difference in color.

From behind. One of my alterations was to insert a diamond shaped gore in between my shoulder blades. This eliminates any binding during movement. In this photo I have my right arm thrown back and you can see a bit of slack in the center of the gore, this denotes it's position.

From the side. Due to light reflection you can just make out the triangular gore on the side of the skirt. It reaches to just below my belt.

Behind cover. In the first photo I have one leg farther back than the other, hence the gap in the skirt's slit. You can just see the slit here and this gives a truer indication of how it now hangs together. The slit is also longer now and terminates just below my belt.

I couldn't resist this one. Big Grin


All in all I added between five and six thousand rings to the hauberk, and maybe one or two hundred to the coif. The total weight of the hauberk, coif, and helm is now an even 40 pounds. (The previous weight of 45 pounds was due to a scale that was out of adjustment.) This has been a very worthwhile endeavor for me. I've enjoyed this project and it's been quite the learning experience.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus


Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Fri 09 Dec, 2005 3:51 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 3:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice work Patrick, it looks great! Big Grin

Definitely a big improvement.

The look you're aiming for is sort of late-11th to mid-12th century then? Happy
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 3:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hisham Gaballa wrote:
Nice work Patrick, it looks great! Big Grin

Definitely a big improvement.

The look you're aiming for is sort of late-11th to mid-12th century then? Happy


Correct and thanks! Somewhere between 1050 and 1150.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Boris Bedrosov
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Location: Bourgas, Bulgaria
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PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 4:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello, Patrick!

Perfect work! Congratulations!
I have only one question. Could you tell me how is in English the name of the spear from the 1st and 2nd picture. I mean, do you have in the English language exact term for it, and if YES, how is it?

Best regards!
Boris
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 4:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you Boris!

The spear is manufactured by Arms & Armor. They call it their 12th century spear.
http://www.arms-n-armor.com/pole146.html

As for some kind of exact historical terminology, I'd have to try and look it up.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 4:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello!

It's me again
Can we say that this is a typical Norman warrior, before or after Laughing Out Loud invading England?

Boris


Last edited by Boris Bedrosov on Sat 19 Nov, 2005 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Carl Goff




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PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 4:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What's the steel gauge and link diameter on that? 14 3/8?
Oh, East of sands and sunlit gulf, your blood is thin, your gods are few;
You could not break the Northern wolf and now the wolf has turned on you.
The fires that light the coasts of Spain fling shadows on the Eastern strand.
Master, your slave has come again with torch and axe in his right hand!
-Robert E. Howard
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Gregory J. Liebau




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PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 5:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, Patrick! The mail looks great, and although the improvements are subtle to my eye (I'm not terribly good at pointing out little modifications in such things, yet) the whole haubergeon and coif setup really adds to the kit! Everything looks wonderful!

Take care, and have a good Thanksgiving!

-Gregory-

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B. Stark
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PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 7:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick, that kit looks great!! Wish I could see it in person. I love the fact that you painted your colours on helmet, shield, and spear shaft. All you need next is a blue and white surcoat, huh? Awesome!

BS

"Wyrd bi∂ ful aręd"

Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense?

Patrick Henry
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Alexander Ren




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PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 8:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very nice. I would not want to be on the recieving end of a thousand or so members of a shield wall armed and armoured in such a way.

Excelent work... Alex

"The more you sweat in practice, the less you bleed in battle."
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 9:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Boris Petrov Bedrosov wrote:
Hello!

It's me again
Can we say that this is a typical Norman warrior, before or after Laughing Out Loud invading England?

Boris


I would say both before and after the conquest. Most of the evidence we have of this period comes from surviving artwork. Very little physical evidence survives and much of it, such as the Bayuex Tapestry, is quite vague in many areas. Consequently, much of it is relatively open to interpretation. I have made certain concessions such as machine stitching, modern-made trim on the tunic, and modern paints used for the helm, spear, and shield. Because of this a hard-line living historian would probably find much to quibble about.

You'll notice that the tunic's trim is of a running dog design that is found in both nordic and Saxon artwork. The belt buckle and strap end are also nordic, being based on swedish finds. (Actually the leather on my Norman belt was quite dry and split on me in several places, in spite of being well oiled. This belt is for my viking kit and will be replaced with another one eventually.) I've intentionally blurred the line between Saxon and Norman with this kit since, quite honestly, I've found things I like in both motifs. I've justified this to myself by thinking of this individual as someone of relatively high status, perhaps a Saxon who survived the Norman invasion and has successfully made the transition under his Norman overlords, or maybe a Norman who has been granted lands in England after a successful invasion and has gone a bit 'native'.

There are things that can, and probably will be, tweaked with this gear. However, I do think it represents a fair approximation of a warrior from the later half of the 11th century , or the first half of the 12th.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 9:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Carl Goff wrote:
What's the steel gauge and link diameter on that? 14 3/8?


Here's a close-up that gives you a better idea of the ring construction. (It was quite windy and I had problems with my tunic blowing up all over the place. It gives me sympathy for our skirt wearing better halves!)


All rings are 9.5mm in inner diameter. The rings of the coif are slightly larger in their outer diameter and these are riveted with wedge rivets. The bulk of the rings in the hauberk are 16ga. with round rivets. The rings that I used for the alterations are 18ga. with wedge rivets. By holding the rings side by side a slight difference in the thickness can be seen, but it isn't terribly obvious, and both are the same in inner and outer diameter. As I see it using the thinner gauge rings on the fringes of the garment doesn't sacrifice protection to the vital areas but does save a bit of weight. Something as thick as 14ga. is really not needed with riveted mail. 18 or 16 gauges are perfectly historical and strong enough when used with riveted mail. 14ga. would only add excess weight.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus


Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Sat 19 Nov, 2005 9:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 9:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gregory J. Liebau wrote:
Wow, Patrick! The mail looks great, and although the improvements are subtle to my eye (I'm not terribly good at pointing out little modifications in such things, yet) the whole haubergeon and coif setup really adds to the kit! Everything looks wonderful!

Take care, and have a good Thanksgiving!

-Gregory-


Thanks G.! Believe me, this wasn't a "little modification". Big Grin At least I don't think so after dealing with thousands of rings and itty bitty rivets! The changes become incredibly obvious when you put it on as it is much more comfortable and unrestricting now.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 9:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

B. Stark wrote:
Patrick, that kit looks great!! Wish I could see it in person. I love the fact that you painted your colours on helmet, shield, and spear shaft. All you need next is a blue and white surcoat, huh? Awesome!

BS


What, and cover up all of that sexy mail? sacrilege!

Laughing Out Loud

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 9:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This one's my favorite of the bunch.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Rod Walker




Location: NSW, Australia.
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PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 9:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very nice. Normans are so cool looking.
Cheers

Rod
Jouster
www.jousting.com.au

"Come! Let us lay a lance in rest,
And tilt at windmills under a wild sky!
For who would live so petty and unblessed
That dare not tilt at something, ere he die?"
--Errantry, John Galsworthy
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Carl Goff




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PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 10:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
14ga. would only add excess weight.


I was wondering if I hadn't missed my guess even as I posted. Since I'm used to working in butted mail, I use really thick/small links (14 ga. 0.25 inch/6.35 mm, to be precise) and so my standards of comparison are screwy.

Nice close-up, though.

Edit: I'm half asleep and initially posted with only a third of the post done. Sorry.

Oh, East of sands and sunlit gulf, your blood is thin, your gods are few;
You could not break the Northern wolf and now the wolf has turned on you.
The fires that light the coasts of Spain fling shadows on the Eastern strand.
Master, your slave has come again with torch and axe in his right hand!
-Robert E. Howard
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 10:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Carl Goff wrote:
Patrick Kelly wrote:
14ga. would only add excess weight.


I was wondering if I hadn't missed my guess even as I posted. Since I'm used to working in butted mail, I use really thick/small links (14 ga. 0.25 inch/6.35 mm, to be precise) and so my standards of comparison are screwy.

Nice close-up, though.

Edit: I'm half asleep and initially posted with only a third of the post done. Sorry.


This project was my first go at riveted mail. Most people have said, "no way!" but after you get the technique down it doesn't seem that bad and you can work pretty quickly. It's still more time consuming than butted mail but the results are well worth it IMHO. The end is a much stronger and lighter garment. I made a hauberk of this general size out of butted springsteel rings and the difference in weight surprised me.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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C.L. Miller




PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 11:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looking great there Patrick! Your changes do make a noticeable difference in comparison with the earlier photos (which looked very nice as they were)... the hang seems does seem far more natural in appearance. I'd say your time has been well-spent indeed, bravo!
I notice you're still wielding the BJ... did the Reeve not take to the scabbard, or have you changed your mind about using it?
Would you happen to know how wide-spread the use of the Dane-axe was, post-Hastings? Did the Normans adopt it in any great numbers?
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Jonathon Janusz





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PostPosted: Sun 20 Nov, 2005 1:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the detail pictures, Patrick. They've been very helpful.

I feel you about the surcoat thing - even if it is plausable/documented historically, it just hurts to think about covering up something you spent what some would consider an insane amount of time lovingly crafting one little ring and one devil-begotten rivet at a time Wink
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