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Martin Wallgren
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 Posted: Wed 06 Apr, 2005 12:22 pm Post subject: Mortshlag |
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Got the opportunity to test this with an Albion Next Generation Landgraf.
Barehanded stroakes against a soft armybag full of clothes.
At first I took it kind of slow to test if there would be some damage to my hands but nothing happened. Thus I got Bold and extended my strokes to full speed. No problem att all. I even tried to stop the strokes by tighten the grip like a Iaido full stop. No problem.
This was made with no handprotection att all and with a full grip of both hands. (not a "monkeygrip" or other, all the fingers around the blade and the thumb in a normal grip.)
Just sharing new Experiences...
Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Wed 06 Apr, 2005 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, Martin, for sharing your impressions. Now, I'm even more excited.
I'm expecting for my Landgraf to arrive tomorrow - am looking very much forward to experiencing this particular piece firsthand. Once I get the opportunity to enjoy it a bit, I'll be glad to share.
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Wed 06 Apr, 2005 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | Thanks, Martin, for sharing your impressions. Now, I'm even more excited.
I'm expecting for my Landgraf to arrive tomorrow - am looking very much forward to experiencing this particular piece firsthand. Once I get the opportunity to enjoy it a bit, I'll be glad to share. |
You'll be suprised at how well this type cuts. It's may not be a dedicated cutter but it performs better than most of us anticipated beforehand.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Martin Wallgren
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| Posted: Wed 06 Apr, 2005 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Aaron
I can tell you, this sword just whisper to you, Stab someone, stab someone... what a weapon. Very fast, might not be the best for a cut but I think it´s deadly enough. Faced with somebody in armour I rather have the Landgraf than something like the Baron or the Duke.
The only thing I wouldn´t go for is the diskpommel, but thats me. To much into Talhoffers 1467 right now and its a lot of grabing the pommel in different ways in that one.
Hope you will enjoy it, emensly...
Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Wed 06 Apr, 2005 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Patrick, Martin-
I've been quite intrigued about the XVII, and this piece moreso than the Sempach. I'm very curious as to the handling in the cut - sure I will find it impressive. I'm positive it's wicked in the thrust - should be, as that's why it's so narrow and rigid. As the collection grows, I will be able to much better understand the handling characteristics of the spectrum of the Typology. With the point control I am imagining, I expect to feel as Martin did - thrust away.
I have yet to cut with my Knight, but have become quite used to the Vinland. In addition to the Landgraf, I am also awaiting a Regent. I'm expecting I have a very fun day coming up soon. Have to find some more bottles, noodles, and a couple of melons, too.
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I made it back home today, and got my mitts on my Landgraf. I'll split my review into two parts - first, my impression of the weapon itself, then on how I found it to handle.
Weapon impression:
Fit and finish are pristine.
Guard and pommel are very crisp.
The blade is sweetly executed.
I'm not a big fan of the black grip - would much have preferred a dark brown or oxblood. It's not that it isn't also well-done, but rather understated for my taste.
Overall impression - an outstanding addition to my growing collection.
Campaign scabbard (also from Albion) is nice, will be better once I rig an appropriate belt and suspension. The photos on Albion's site are a good representation.
Handling impression:
Mean in the thrust - decent point control. I used a pistol target slightly out of reach to avoid damage to the point, but to gauge accuracy and control. I had expected a slightly more distal point of rotation, but adjusted quickly. Martin was correct - this piece begs for a good poke.
Cutting - all I had available were a few 2-liters. From vom Tag, 3 consistent Oberhau from the right.  Not a dedicated cutter, but good God, what a punch! Excellent feel, sweet follow-through straight to Alber and prepared for another immediate action. Against an unarmoured opponent, this would be pretty effective. Against an armoured one, it could still be disruptive.
Guards and Strikes - no real issues here - Martin does have a good point regarding the pommel - for some of the techniques (winding - leverage gained by slipping down onto the pommel is a bit awkward; crossing the wrists - had to release the ring and pinky fingers and loosen the middle) , a scent-stopper would be more ergonomic, though with some practice, I think I could get used to this. The blade is quite lively and responsive, changing direction and rotation easily.
So... bottom line impression?
Wicked.
Headed back out to play some more. 
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | So... bottom line impression?
Wicked. |
That seems to be commonly accepted as "le mot juste" for most of the Next Gens. 
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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I was quite fond of my Landgraf when I owned it, and am somewhat sorry I sold it. *sigh* Isn't that always the case?
| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | | for some of the techniques (winding - leverage gained by slipping down onto the pommel is a bit awkward; crossing the wrists - had to release the ring and pinky fingers and loosen the middle) , a scent-stopper would be more ergonomic, though with some practice, I think I could get used to this. |
I'd thought this too, originally, as I tend to like to grip the pommel. However some masters actually preferred a grip with the hands closer together. The Doebringer manuscript specifically says not to grip the pommel when fighting to the death, as holding the hands closer together will result in more powerful strikes. If held with the hands close I didn't find any problems at all with the pommel, though I still personally like more ergonomic pommels myself.
Martin, you're right: this and the Sempach felt completely natural in the mortschlag!
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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I have a Landgraf and a Regent.
Try some halfswording with the Landgraf and I suspect you'll be surprised.
It really IS a can opener.
The Regent is going to take your breath away. Nothing else for it. Initially the pommel is going to feel real odd. Give it some time and play around. Also, if you really work the pommel, consider some light gloves.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | I'd thought this too, originally, as I tend to like to grip the pommel. However some masters actually preferred a grip with the hands closer together. The Doebringer manuscript specifically says not to grip the pommel when fighting to the death, as holding the hands closer together will result in more powerful strikes. If held with the hands close I didn't find any problems at all with the pommel, though I still personally like more ergonomic pommels myself. |
I agree with this in most primary strikes. My thought was more on a secondary strike post winding upward, then the follow-up strike was a thrust. On the primary strikes against a target, my hands were choked together very comfortably, and with an effect that shocked me a bit on the first full-powered strike.
| Joe Fults wrote: | I have a Landgraf and a Regent.
Try some halfswording with the Landgraf and I suspect you'll be surprised.
It really IS a can opener.
The Regent is going to take your breath away. Nothing else for it. Initially the pommel is going to feel real odd. Give it some time and play around. Also, if you really work the pommel, consider some light gloves. |
I went back out to play some more after I posted my initial comments, and did just that. Talk about putting the point on target with authority! I thought it "wicked" before. Now... damn. I was really anxious to get my Regent until this past couple of hours. I still am, but I think this will keep me happily occupied in the mean time. Hopefully, after I get done with work tomorrow, the weather will still be good.
I appreciate the thoughts on the Regent. That pommel is what drew me to the piece in the first place aesthetically, but I figured it might be a bit "fun" to work with. I have three different pairs of gloves that I like: a pair of light leather work gloves, a pair of fencing gauntlets, and a pair of stage gloves (used by riggers to change lighting - very flexible and form-fitting, but well-padded in the palms and fingers). I'll find a good match. Once I get a feel for the Landgraf, I'll put the Regent through it's paces. I have a feeling that, in comparing the two, I'll be able to gain a better understanding and respect for each.
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Sat 09 Apr, 2005 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: |
...some masters actually preferred a grip with the hands closer together. The Doebringer manuscript specifically says not to grip the pommel when fighting to the death, as holding the hands closer together will result in more powerful strikes. If held with the hands close I didn't find any problems at all with the pommel, though I still personally like more ergonomic pommels myself.
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I'd like to see that quote. In what context does he mention this? Define "closer together". In my experience gripping the hilt with both hands close to each other generally means a sacrifice of tip control.
Regards,
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sat 09 Apr, 2005 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Joachim Nilsson wrote: | | In my experience gripping the hilt with both hands close to each other generally means a sacrifice of tip control. |
I spent some more time with the Landgraf today. I'm really starting to like this sword!
I payed a lot of attention to precisely this, Joachim, and had the same impression. Some separation of the hands on the grip/pommel generated far better point control in the thrust. When half-swording, this sword is downright mean and deadly accurate. The separation of the hands becomes likened to shooting pool... (eyeball, corner socket? ) I'm not positive, as I also don't have this in context per the author, but in practical use, I'm going to assume what the author meant by "strike" is a cut, not a thrust.
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sun 10 Apr, 2005 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| Joachim Nilsson wrote: |
I'd like to see that quote. In what context does he mention this? Define "closer together". In my experience gripping the hilt with both hands close to each other generally means a sacrifice of tip control.
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Hi Joachim,
From David Linholm's translation:
| Quote: | | Know also that a good fencer should before all things know his sword and be able to grip it well with both hands, between the cross guard and the pommel since you will then be safer then if you did grip it with one hand on the pommel. And you will also strike harder and truer, with the pommel swinging itself and turning in the strike you will strike harder then if you were holding the pommel. When you pull the pommel in the strike you will not come as perfect or as strongly. For the sword is like a scale, if a sword is large and heavy then the pommel must also be large and heavy to balance it like a scale. |
It also appears to me, though I could be mistaken, that the text advises gripping the pommel during friendly fencing instead of life or death combat, as immediately after he makes another scale reference:
| Quote: | | Also know that when you fence with another you should step with caution and be sure in them as if you were standing on a scale and adapt accordingly to if you goes forward or backward as is fitting. |
Like I said, I personally like gripping the pommel, and Talhoffer and Codex Wallerstein and other manuscripts are littered with illustrations of peopld doing so. But it's clear that certainly not all masters advocated the same grip.
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Sun 10 Apr, 2005 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: |
From David Linholm's translation:
| Quote: | | Know also that a good fencer should before all things know his sword and be able to grip it well with both hands, between the cross guard and the pommel since you will then be safer then if you did grip it with one hand on the pommel. And you will also strike harder and truer, with the pommel swinging itself and turning in the strike you will strike harder then if you were holding the pommel. When you pull the pommel in the strike you will not come as perfect or as strongly. For the sword is like a scale, if a sword is large and heavy then the pommel must also be large and heavy to balance it like a scale. |
It also appears to me, though I could be mistaken, that the text advises gripping the pommel during friendly fencing instead of life or death combat, as immediately after he makes another scale reference:
| Quote: | | Also know that when you fence with another you should step with caution and be sure in them as if you were standing on a scale and adapt accordingly to if you goes forward or backward as is fitting. |
Like I said, I personally like gripping the pommel, and Talhoffer and Codex Wallerstein and other manuscripts are littered with illustrations of peopld doing so. But it's clear that certainly not all masters advocated the same grip. |
This is interesting indeed. Intriguing that not all masters advised, or seemed to prefer, gripping the pommel. I wonder if this could be because difference in pommels (i.e. discs as opposed to scent-stoppers or other type T's) -the very things we are discussing right now. But the advice Doebringer gives: is it for a special occasion (such as Zufechten) or is it to be used in any and all distances, techniques and cuts? Winden would be clumpsy -to say the least- with both hands close together.
Although I fear we are digressing from the original subject somewhat, I still have to ask: why did the latter Doebringer quote made you come to the conlusion that he is refering to friendly combat? To me it sounds more like he is giving advice on balance and, to a lesser extent, balance in footwork. I'm just being curious and inquisitive.
I personally agree with you on gripping the pommel. It's more versatile and allows for a more fluid grip which also makes Mastercuts and a host of techniques easier to employ. That's why I'm looking forward to the NextGen Talhoffer.
Best regards,
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Sun 10 Apr, 2005 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: |
I spent some more time with the Landgraf today. I'm really starting to like this sword! |
Yes, it is a lovely sword indeed. I had my eye on the type XVII for quite some time, but I'm going to go for the type XVa first. Perhaps we can compare notes at a later date.
| Quote: | | I payed a lot of attention to precisely this, Joachim, and had the same impression. Some separation of the hands on the grip/pommel generated far better point control in the thrust. |
Yes, the further the hands are apart the better the tip control seem to get. I've also discovered that the longer the hilt is, the better the tip control gets. The Svante for instance: Whenever I get to handle that sword, I feel like I could write my name with the tip. I wouldn't go as far as to mark this out as a general rule of thumb though. I mean tip control isn't really the issue at hand when I handle my 6ft Renaissance twohander for instance. But I think you get my point (no pun intended). If not: I better cut down on my caffeine intake before posting.
| Quote: | | When half-swording, this sword is downright mean and deadly accurate. The separation of the hands becomes likened to shooting pool... (eyeball, corner socket? ) I'm not positive, as I also don't have this in context per the author, but in practical use, I'm going to assume what the author meant by "strike" is a cut, not a thrust. |
LOL! Yes, you're right. It's accurate indeed. And the more and more I study swords and the art of using them the more convinced I get that some swords are better suited for halfswording than others. The Landgraf being one of them. You really should try your hand at a Mortschlag or two.
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sun 10 Apr, 2005 6:52 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the snippet, Bill! I was hoping to get a hold of the entire document - can you guide me? I'd like to see the work in it's entirety to get the full contextual picture of what Doebringer is talking about. Joachim is asking the same question, I believe:
| Quote: | | But the advice Doebringer gives: is it for a special occasion (such as Zufechten) or is it to be used in any and all distances, techniques and cuts? Winden would be clumpsy -to say the least- with both hands close together. |
| Quote: | Like I said, I personally like gripping the pommel, and Talhoffer and Codex Wallerstein and other manuscripts are littered with illustrations of peopld doing so. But it's clear that certainly not all masters advocated the same grip.
I personally agree with you on gripping the pommel. It's more versatile and allows for a more fluid grip which also makes Mastercuts and a host of techniques easier to employ. That's why I'm looking forward to the NextGen Talhoffer. |
That makes 3 of us that do grip the pommel, and I've no doubt it's for good reason. I'm interested in seeing the differences amongst these different masters.
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sun 10 Apr, 2005 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Joachim Nilsson wrote: | | Yes, it is a lovely sword indeed. I had my eye on the type XVII for quite some time, but I'm going to go for the type XVa first. Perhaps we can compare notes at a later date. |
I'm quite excited about the XVa swords as well... probably looking at a Ringneck and/or Talhoffer, myself. I'll look forward to discussing them.
| Joachim Nilsson wrote: | | Yes, the further the hands are apart the better the tip control seem to get. I've also discovered that the longer the hilt is, the better the tip control gets. The Svante for instance: Whenever I get to handle that sword, I feel like I could write my name with the tip. I wouldn't go as far as to mark this out as a general rule of thumb though. I mean tip control isn't really the issue at hand when I handle my 6ft Renaissance twohander for instance. But I think you get my point (no pun intended). If not: I better cut down on my caffeine intake before posting. |
I'll look at this in the future, as my collection advances (read: after I sign over a few more paychecks to Howy ). The Svante is on my list, though I don't know if I'll be able to swing that in '05. I'm also wondering how a widened grip affects the handling of a cutter like the Duke?
| Joachim Nilsson wrote: | | You really should try your hand at a Mortschlag or two. |
Did. The neighbors really thought I was nuts. I was very impressed with the effect . This is definitely an all-around demon of a sword.
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Sun 10 Apr, 2005 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Please pardon my ignorance.  Will someone please explain the meaning of "mortschlag"?
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Sun 10 Apr, 2005 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Steve Grisetti wrote: | | Please pardon my ignorance. Will someone please explain the meaning of "mortschlag"? |
Mortschlag [roughly: "killing blow" or "murder-stroke"] is when you grip the blade with both hands and smack the opponant with the hilt -thus utilizing it as a warhammer (or similar tool). Talhoffer's fechtbuch from 1467 feature a lot of techniques utilizing the Mortschlag in blossfechten halfswording. The goal is to hit the enemy in the head and disable him, or to trap and hook his sword or leg or neck to disarm him or pull him to the ground.
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Sun 10 Apr, 2005 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| Joachim Nilsson wrote: | | Steve Grisetti wrote: | | Please pardon my ignorance. Will someone please explain the meaning of "mortschlag"? |
Mortschlag [roughly: "killing blow" or "murder-stroke"] is when you grip the blade with both hands and smack the opponant with the hilt -thus utilizing it as a warhammer (or similar tool). Talhoffer's fechtbuch from 1467 feature a lot of techniques utilizing the Mortschlag in blossfechten halfswording. The goal is to hit the enemy in the head and disable him, or to trap and hook his sword or leg or neck to disarm him or pull him to the ground. |
Thank you, Joachim. I imagine that the hefty pommel on my Arms & Armor GBS would do well in that application.
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