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Considering all of the features for this week's site update, please rate the quality of our efforts.
Excellent
40%
 40%  [ 22 ]
Very Good
56%
 56%  [ 31 ]
Good
1%
 1%  [ 1 ]
Fair
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Poor
1%
 1%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 55

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 18 Nov, 2005 4:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allen W wrote:
I thought it was a very good update but have disagree with Bill Grandy's characterization of scabbard free wear as the norm for messers. It seems that every illustration I have seen of one actually suspended was clearly worn in a scabbard.

Can you please post some of those illustrations? I'd love to see the form of suspension and style of scabbard for these pieces. I've only seen a couple woodcuts with a kriegsmesser on it: they both had a hanger without a scabbard. This doesn't seem too practical. I'm super interested in this!

As far as disagreeing with Bill's comment: "it would seem that a common way to carry one was for the saber to be hung from a belt without a scabbard." Since he has documented woodcuts showing this, I'd say it was done. I guess the word "common" is what you find objectionable. Maybe the article should say "documented" rather than "common"?

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Allen W





Joined: 02 Mar 2004

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PostPosted: Fri 18 Nov, 2005 4:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd love to help Nathan, but I tend to borrow most of my sources from libraries which complicates access and I currently have very limited computer access (this rules out my scanner). I can picture a few in my head but can't source them. There is at least one woodcut floating around myArmoury of a Landeschnecht with a scabbarded messer suspended from a complex knot. As to Bill Grandy's post I thought he was suggesting that the pictorial norm for messers was for them to be worn w/out scabbards. I have yet to see such a representation and would be grateful if you or anyone else would post some.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 18 Nov, 2005 4:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Now I'm going to have to search for more because, as I mentioned, this is of interest to me.

Here are the woodcuts to which I was referring:





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Allen W





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PostPosted: Fri 18 Nov, 2005 4:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To my eyes those mostly appear to be in scabbards. The bottom pic(which happens to be the one I was referring to in my previous post) particularly appears to have a seam or ridge that would not be appropriate to a bare blade of its type. This and on the leftmost messer in the top pic look like pockets for by-knives.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 18 Nov, 2005 4:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allen W wrote:
To my eyes those mostly appear to be in scabbards. The bottom pic(which happens to be the one I was referring to in my previous post) particularly appears to have a seam or ridge that would not be appropriate to a bare blade of its type. This and on the leftmost messer in the top pic look like pockets for by-knives.


I agree about the top pic, but the other sword in the top pic looks to be bare w/o a scabbard.

The bottom pic looks bare to me, too. The illustration is shown in Landsknecht Soldier 1486-1560. It was discuss on the forums a few years ago and people concluded that they felt it was a bare blade. At the time, I saw it as a scabbard as well but changed my mind. Now I don't know anymore. It seems impractical to me to have a bare blade hanging.

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 18 Nov, 2005 6:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A butter knife sharp blade I can see it being a bare blade but with a sharper, scary sharp, blade I don't see it.

I would tend towards the lines on the " blade " being a scabbard.

I don't know enough about Messers, but assuming a flat ground blade from the top of the blade to the edge without bevel lines ( Sabre ground. ) is the normal standard any lines running in the centre of the blade should be a line on the drawing referring to a scabbard.

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Allen W





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PostPosted: Sat 19 Nov, 2005 7:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I find it difficult to imagine sliding a bare blade back into that knot without the point snagging between the cords or retying such a knot anytime the blade was removed. The angles of suspension of all of these also suggest scabbard to me but thats harder to justify.
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