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Patrick Kelly
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 Posted: Mon 17 Oct, 2005 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Robert B. Allison wrote: | | "Ooohhh, it looks just like a pepper-mill." |
"Would you like fresh pepper on your caesar salad?" |
Now that's funny!
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Chris B
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| Posted: Tue 01 Nov, 2005 11:49 pm Post subject: First generation Vs. Next generation |
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What is the main difference between the firest generation and next generation swords besides a couple hundred dollars? type of steel? heat treatment?
Just wondering,
thanks,
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Howard Waddell
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 02 Nov, 2005 4:50 am Post subject: Re: First generation Vs. Next generation |
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| Chris B wrote: | What is the main difference between the firest generation and next generation swords besides a couple hundred dollars? type of steel? heat treatment?
Just wondering,
thanks, |
Hi Chris!
The biggest difference is the amount of research that goes into each piece.
Our FirstGen swords were based primarily on written research (by Oakeshott and others) and personal testing of prototypes. Photos and stats, we discovered however, tell only a small part of the story. There was nothing wrong with the First Gens -- we got very lucky and managed to produce some decent swords on minimal information. But they did not look and feel like the originals -- I would classify them as good "contemporary" sword designs.
The NextGens (and why we named them that) are based on hundreds of hours of direct, hands on research by Peter and other folks here, weighing, measuring and gathering impressions and detailed photos from original pieces. The resulting details that make them so different from our FirstGen efforts may not be easily visible through photographs, but they are there.
Best,
Howy
Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 02 Nov, 2005 6:53 am Post subject: Re: First generation Vs. Next generation |
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| Chris B wrote: | What is the main difference between the firest generation and next generation swords besides a couple hundred dollars? type of steel? heat treatment?
Just wondering,
thanks, |
Well...
Mostly everything everything is different actually, even if it might not be obvious at a quick glance.
The new gladii are built on an overall new design, the finish is new, they are built acording to a new construction method, partly new materials are used, even the rivet button is new and based on surviving originals. Handling characteristics and performance is also markedly different.
Apart from that, the main difference is that the new roman swords are based on my own hands on examination of originals (as many as I have been able to lay hands on) and visits to more than half a dozen museums scattered around Europe: British Museum, National Museum Kopenhagen, Museum of National Antiquities Stockholm, Deutsches Kilngenmuseum Solingen, Germanic and Roman museum in Köln, Rheinische Landesmuseum, Bayersisches Army museum in Ingolstadt just to mention the more important ones.
This means the swords are *not* just based on second hand info from books and archaeological reports but are the results of first hand, personal impressions of originals.
All original gladii are different: not two are exactly the same. Still they are similar in character. You will never find exactly the same pommel on two surviving originals. That does not mean you can make a pommel just any way you want and still call it a gladius that is authentic in style. There is a character and feel to capture and there are functional aspects even in the shaping of the hilt components that makes for a noticeable difference in handling.
You can´t read about this in books (only bits and peices that tell a small part of the picture). The only way to get a good idea of what these weapons was all about, is to go to the museeums yourself and ask permission to handle and perhaps even document the originals (document= tracing, photographs & measurements).
Very few contemporary reconstructions are based on this kind of research, despite what marketing might make it out to be. It is sad (and sometimes frustrating) to see how diluted the words "authentic" and "historically accurate" has become. It is so easy to say. It has become almost as meanigful as "battle ready"...
*Sigh*
I keep returning to the importance of basing reconstruction work on study of surviving originals (if historical accuracy is important to you).
To my mind this is not some superficial icing of the cake. It is not just empty marketing lingo.
To me this is the most important thing if you want to make swords that follow historical example.
It is a key to the reality of the sword.
You need to know intimately what these swords were like if you are to get close in an interpretation.
There are also important things to learn from original swords, that are not evident at first. Reconstructions will not only look more authentic, but also perform better if they are based on a close study of original pieces. By learning to fight with these gladii, you will experience what roman legionares (and perhaps galdiators?) had to master and in what way the gladius became such an effective killing tool. You will know what it takes to deliver a sucessfull cut or thust: how relatively little effort it takes and what kind of control you can have of edge and point.
Finally something that has been remarked on before on the topic of gladii and roman swords: the high level of finish of the NG´s might actually be too fine for the typical gladius.
It is true that many originals would have been more uneven in shape and finish, but that is a character that few modern enthusiasts can appreciate properly.
There is an important difference between simple shoddy work and the "mistakes" or character marks of a highly trained craftsman. Low quality, low cost "cheapo" swords do not come closer to originals just because they are badly made. Those kind of shortcomings in contemprary "swords" only makes the "replica" more distant from what the real thing was.
To include irregularities in the basic blade blanks and hilt components already in the design is not always the best thing either. Intsead these swords will now show very slight irregularities as a result of the hand work involved in their making. This is perfectly in character although the NG gladii will tend to compare in character to original gladii of high quality.
In perfomance and worksmanship they aim at being good representativess of the kind of no nonsense weapons a seasoned swordsman might chose for his personal sidearm: dependable, quick and lethal.
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Randal Graham
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 03 Nov, 2005 4:24 am Post subject: |
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Peter, when you were examining the original roman stuff, what was your impression regarding the blade construction?
ie; mostly simple piled structure, or were quite a few obviously patternwelded intentionally, or just a few, etc ?
I have some museum photographs with spatha showing herringbone patterns in the centers, but had the thought that likley these are just exceptional examples, and perhaps not the norm.
Thoughts?
R.H.Graham
Swordsmith
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Sun 25 Dec, 2005 1:18 pm Post subject: questions for Albion |
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Hi anyone at Albion
I may have missed this somewhere in the thread, but what are the dimensions (width, thickness, taper) of the tangs on the gladii.? Also, is everything in the hilt held on place by compression or are they epoxied on to the tang or something? If you already answered these questions and I've overlooked them, please point me to it and accept my apologies.
Off the Gladius topic, have you experienced any problems with loosening from the different linear expansivities (or CLE or whatever they are called nowadays) of the metals involved when you've used bronze as hilt components, as in a couple of the medieval swords?
Compliments of the season
Geoff Wood
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 27 Dec, 2005 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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Just back from christmas celebrations. Hope you folks had a good hoyday.
Radal! Hey!
In many cases the blades are very corroded. This can mean that the structure is not evident without x-ray analysis, or that the structure is *very* visible.
Patternwelding is common. In the Museum of Prehistoryin Munich there is a collection of Roman pugio daggers (I think they were found together or a the same site, but I can be wrog) that showed very nice torsion patterwelding in the double fullers. The edges were "plain" steel (= steel refined by many times folding and so a bit streaky but not pattern welded).
I do not know the date for these daggers. They were large: almost 30 cm long in the blade. Someone who knows the dating of these could perhaps fill in a probable dating? (I would guess 1st C AD).
I have not personally seen any original patternwelded gladii, but there are some reconstruction by noted smiths that have this construction, so I guess they do exist.
It is not possible to see the construction of those gladii I have personally seen. They look mono-steel construction.
*But* reading about these shows another picture. It seems that constructions varied quite a bit. Different sandwich techniques, Z-foldings with inserted steel strips, hard skin/soft core and so on. Depending on finishing techniques these constructions would have been obvious or very discreet to non-visible when the swords were new.
Spathae are commonly patternwelded.
In many cases the corrosion leaves no clue to structure.
In some cases it seems that they were not patterwelded, as they really look like mono steel blades (x-ray analysis might show piled structure, however) The narrow pointy type that has been used for the "Alaris" sword in the NG line is typically not patternwelded.
(I have however seen a photo of one blade of this type that shows clustres of straight dark lines down the middle, and so is a non-torsion patterwelded sword. I think it is unusual for this type however.)
Many of the wider (and usually slightly shorter) spathae blades are patternwelded. It seems to me the majority are patternwelded.
Very many have these straight slightly wavering lines running down the middle, like a blade made from bundles set up for torsion pattern, but without the final twisting so to say.
But very common is also the torsion patterns.
There are also examples of very complex mosaic patterns and some fish net patterns I don´t even know how to classify.
They were pretty good at this... 
Geoff:
The tangs are of the same section as the very base of the blade: a hexagonal. They step down gradually the first few centimeters and then continue straight to the rivet shank. Width of the tang along most of its length is about 14 mm and about 5-6 mm thick, depending on blade. It is plenty sturdy for the blade size.
Originals typically have pretty straight tangs with moderate taper and squarely cut shoulders. Roman swords tend to have narrow (but some times thick) tangs.
The hilt is held together by a combination of fit and riveting, but also finally secured by glue. (The glue is probably not strictly neccessary, but is used as a fool-proofing as you never know what the swords might have to put up with).
I have described the construction of the mounting to some detail a few times in earlier threads, but I have no way to point out the sections. Sorry about that.
The grip is made with lugs in both ends that fits recesses in the guard and pommel. This is a detail that can be seen on some surviving hilts. The wooden parts have a good fit to each other and are burned out to fit the tang, but are locked in place with final riveting and secured for double safety with epoxy.
Hope this helps!
Last edited by Peter Johnsson on Tue 27 Dec, 2005 3:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Tue 27 Dec, 2005 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. Johnsson: Check your inbox bitte. 
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Geoff Wood
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| Posted: Wed 28 Dec, 2005 10:34 am Post subject: thanks |
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Thanks Peter. Sorry I missed it the first time.
Regards
Geoff
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Martin Wallgren
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| Posted: Mon 16 Jan, 2006 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Hallo Peter!
Hope you had a God Jul!
Is there any chans of a future that includes a Maestroline Gladius and Spatha! That I think could be a treat for all Roman fans out there (me included).
Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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Aaron Schneiker
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| Posted: Mon 16 Jan, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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This is a question based on Peter's comments about a quality product still quickly produced.
What was the level of finish on the majority of the swords made in this time period? I only ask because in many modern reproductions of both swords and armor, you see mirror finishes. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I would guess that they didn't have the means to do this then and if they did it would be highly impractical/expensive for your average blade. Was the finish done with a polishing stone? I know the japanese would spend a great deal of time with the final polish on their swords, but I am more interested in what a historical finish on say an 11th-14th century European sword meant for combat might have been? And how was this finish achieved?
-Aaron
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Martin Wallgren
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| Posted: Mon 16 Jan, 2006 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schneiker wrote: | This is a question based on Peter's comments about a quality product still quickly produced.
What was the level of finish on the majority of the swords made in this time period? I only ask because in many modern reproductions of both swords and armor, you see mirror finishes. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I would guess that they didn't have the means to do this then and if they did it would be highly impractical/expensive for your average blade. Was the finish done with a polishing stone? I know the japanese would spend a great deal of time with the final polish on their swords, but I am more interested in what a historical finish on say an 11th-14th century European sword meant for combat might have been? And how was this finish achieved?
-Aaron |
I read somewhere about somthing having to do with a barrel and sand and a good roll down a slope. This was for cleansing rust out of a maile. but my friend Adrian had done it to nasal helmets to when he was in "the Vike" Re-enactment!
Just an idea!
Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 16 Jan, 2006 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schneiker wrote: | This is a question based on Peter's comments about a quality product still quickly produced.
What was the level of finish on the majority of the swords made in this time period? I only ask because in many modern reproductions of both swords and armor, you see mirror finishes. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I would guess that they didn't have the means to do this then and if they did it would be highly impractical/expensive for your average blade. Was the finish done with a polishing stone? I know the japanese would spend a great deal of time with the final polish on their swords, but I am more interested in what a historical finish on say an 11th-14th century European sword meant for combat might have been? And how was this finish achieved?
-Aaron |
There is no question mirror finish could be produced. The question is when and on what that was done. Bronze mirrors were used during the early iron age and perhaps earlier.
Pumice stone is a very fine abrasive that can be mixed with oil and/or animal fat. Apply that with leather that is backed by wood, either as a hand held polishing block or a rotating polishing wheel.
Agate stones can be used to polish bronze, silver and gold.
Less than mirror polish and more like satin is made by slightly coarser abrasives.
The island of Naxos still exports a polishing compound in various grits that is a powdreized natural mineral (I don´t know what exactly) and that is still used as emery powder in traditional polishing by old school grinders/polishers in Solingen.
They have big wooden wheels covered with walrus leather that is treated with bone glue and emery compound. When polishing/grinding they mix vegetable oil with emery powder (of the prefferend grit) and spread a small amount of il & emery on a piece of steel. This is held to the spinning wheel so that the bone glue heats up and releases some of its bonded grit and at the same time becomes replenished by the oil/grit mix. This is a very effective method of polishing that is also traditional.
Vary the different essentials and you have methods of polishing that could date back to the bronze age. Spinning wheels might be later, but they were defenitly known and used in Roman times for press turning bronze helmets and vases.
I would be very surpriced if they did not use spinning wheels for polishing as well.
When you see well preserved armour from the late middle ages it has a finish that is a high satin, almost mirror, but often showing some filemarks and the occasional scale pit from forging as well. It is a rich and very attractive surface that looks well finished and completed.
To get an idea of what it could have looked like: take a look at Flemish or Italian 15th C art. Military saints are commonly depicted in full armour: The armour is often shown mirroring objects close by and the artists have made a point of showing of their skills in rendering the illusion of the curving mirroring surfaces of hardened steel.
In some cases you can see sword blades depicted as long shiny mirrors, but I have not seen that effect explored any earlier than early 16th C art.
Those swords that have survived with a fine and hard black patina can show original surface, although it has turned black.
It is typical that the surface is nice and well defined with a shiny finish. Difficult to say if it was mirror bright. I would rather say a high satin finish with a dense and hard feeling. Still you can see occasional scratches as well: some marks from a coarser stone showing through polish, much like the occasional file marks on armour.
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